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Post by Dragon of Spires on Mar 17, 2009 12:26:11 GMT -5
RDD nerf idea Red Dragons are immune to fire, but a dragon disciple is not a dragon, just a wannabe. How about reducing RDD fire immunity to 50% You are right - in part they aren't dragons - however they aren't wannabe's either - they do have dragon blood running through their veins. IMHO its not the RDD that makes the build its the pm .... RDD offers boost to stats in addition to the fire imm. thats what makes it worth the addition Nather and I tested the monk attacking a "shielded" sorc and even with my RDD lvls i still reduced myself to half my HP in one round of attacks, using my kamas ... so put together. using the 3 shields Acid sheath, Death armor, and elemental shield and the following references nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_shieldnwn.wikia.com/wiki/Mestil%27s_acid_sheathnwn.wikia.com/wiki/Death_armoracid sheath deals 1d6 points +2 points per caster level of acid damage. this was void in our test since i was using kamas instead of fists ( if i understand it right ) however if using fists against a caster with 10 lvls you would give yourself max 182 pts of acid dmg per round elemental shield gave the caster 50 % imm to fire and cold and dealt 1d6, +1 point per caster level / successful attack so with 10 lvls of caster you get a max of 16 pts dmg per attack against a monk with 7 attacks / round you could give yourself a max of 116 pts of dmg a round death armor dealt cstr damage lvl / strike 3 1d4 + 1 4 1d4 + 2 6 1d4 + 3 8 1d4 + 4 10 1d4 + 5 this is also the only one of the three to offer a save or SR against it (FYI the save is will save) so with max roll and lvl bonus you would get 9 x your successful hits that round monk = possible 7 so we're talking about max of 63 pts of dmg that you just gave yourself just from this spell. now if using weapons you have the max possible dmg of 179 however if your going unarmed you have a max possible dmg of 361 this is per round. i'm not saying to nerf them with out them how many bosses would be that much harder to kill and if you are playing against a boss aren't you basically playing PVP ( if the DM takes control of the boss as they should just to make sure that its as hard as possible for the boss to actually be killed AI in its current state is rather stupid ) I don't agree with reducing a RDD fire imm it 50% that is actually making it worse than a caster who is using Elemental shield. yet RDD fire imm doesn't even help with attacking a mage now for my constructive impute if a change is needed for RDD then my suggestion is that it takes more lvls of Bard to get it. |
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Post by Dethklok on Mar 17, 2009 13:33:42 GMT -5
Acid sheath was changed a while back. It now does 1d6 +1 per level, not +2, and gives you 50% resistance to acid. And Im almost positive you cant resist Death Armor with SR or a will save...Im guessing it was changed as well since the wiki does say you can resist it. And the RDD class isn't any more powerful than a Weapon Master. Or a Pale Master....or a Sorcerer.  |
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Post by Tempus on Mar 17, 2009 14:03:37 GMT -5
You can still scruh off some acid, fire or sonic damage done from these sheilds with the proper gear, feats or spells... Though in light of the discussion, this is a mute point as there still is no arguing the fact that there is a slant on the side of the casters and PM builds. I say we shake the server up to use all NWN defaults and see what falls out......  |
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Post by Nather on Mar 17, 2009 14:12:33 GMT -5
i swear my posts are deleted quicker and quicker these days.........
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Post by Tyr on Mar 17, 2009 14:37:58 GMT -5
I could agree with you Tempus, restore the defaults and just see how that pans out, at least then it would be "this is how the game is played" also not a bad idea to boost other useless prestige classes.
We have a few options and this topic is all about PvP. Frankly scroll and wand usage is effective with the right combinations, even under the current UMD restriction. Although to truly bring things back to the right playing field just restrict discipline, but then everyone would die thats non-melee out in the harder epic areas or just use a lot more heals.
No matter which way is done, the person with the PvP experience is likely to come out on top anyways. Gear also makes the difference.
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Post by Tony654 on Mar 17, 2009 15:12:25 GMT -5
well what about bow, sling, throw axe  wis based monk -> zen archery & quivering palm -> surely dead mage -> monk = mage killer Villvk, arrows, bullets, and axes (not to mention bolts) shot by a zen monk will be but a minor nuisance to a mage that has half decent gear. (That's if, and I mean if, the monk will have enough AB to actually hit the sorcerer.) (Remember, a monk has to waste so many epic feats on SR, so the loss of that extra wisdom greatly impairs his AB)(Throw a remorted sorcerer into this and, well, you get the picture) As for the Quivering Palm: Firstly, the DC will be low enough to give the sorcerer a 95% chance of making the save. Secondly, a quote from the NWNWIKI page: "Quivering Palm may only be used on creatures at a lower level than the character" |
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Post by Imhotep on Mar 17, 2009 17:25:29 GMT -5
and for the record sorc isnt that overpowered anymore, there's plenty of good builds out there that can kill them on RD. Makes me chuckle every time someone says that ;D A mage is an easy kill... if you use a mage yourself (and you are good at it). You all seem to forget it... |
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Post by Tino the magnificent on Mar 17, 2009 19:59:35 GMT -5
Makes me chuckle every time someone says that ;D A mage is an easy kill... if you use a mage yourself (and you are good at it). You all seem to forget it... a mage is only vulnerable in unrested and caught un aware....in truth though, how many mage PVP players would ever be caught like that if they are worth there weight in Mana ;D |
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Post by Tino the magnificent on Mar 18, 2009 0:16:17 GMT -5
my thoughts on Pm/ RDD build as i think that i have one of the leading builds on the server.... PM: great ac, imune to crits, epic spells (very nice).....no ab to speak of RDD: imune to fire, some str bonus, some ac bonus......no ab to speak of Bard: great Spell Craft, a few spells (not used honestly), bard song, a bit of UMD.....no ab to speak of honestly, this build is my fav only because i focus greatly in STR.........it helps even out the AB problem.......but, AB is still realy low comaired to other builds i've come up w/.....even w/ Remort my AB is still realy low compared to other builds.....even lower then straight fighter chars, and dex monk too........ why u guys find the PM/RDD so powerful??? their AB sux hard....trust me, it sux.......the only thing I am good for is a crazy tank....against a mage my PM/RDD is very weak......only thing that keeps him in the running is his use of scrolls, and he still can't read a GSM as fast as a mage can cast Mords.....Mords, igms, mords, igms, mords igms......i'm toast.....unless i pull a rabit out of my hat (i've been known to do this from time to time)...... my two cents, tino p.s. i've been putting in my two cents for a while now, who is collecting it  |
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Post by villvk on Mar 18, 2009 3:29:58 GMT -5
well what about bow, sling, throw axe wis based monk -> zen archery & quivering palm -> surely dead mage -> monk = mage killer Villvk, arrows, bullets, and axes (not to mention bolts) shot by a zen monk will be but a minor nuisance to a mage that has half decent gear. (That's if, and I mean if, the monk will have enough AB to actually hit the sorcerer.) (Remember, a monk has to waste so many epic feats on SR, so the loss of that extra wisdom greatly impairs his AB)(Throw a remorted sorcerer into this and, well, you get the picture) As for the Quivering Palm: Firstly, the DC will be low enough to give the sorcerer a 95% chance of making the save. Secondly, a quote from the NWNWIKI page: "Quivering Palm may only be used on creatures at a lower level than the character" Well in some points you are right. But there are ways to get around that you know. Some multiclassing and you have a nasty mage killer. I know sorcs can get quite high AC but with doing that they lower their SP so you don't need so much feats thrown away (but still a lot  ). Well if you don't like wisdom, you can be dex based and your attack bonus get with a appropriate gear around 50. With a little tweaking of your dmg output (wiki stated divine might and divine favor dmg bonuses penetrate any dmg reduction no matter with what he buffed himself). Raksha is still an option. Some builds are strongest that the other as Tino sad. And I am sorry if I am mixing myself in to this debate but I thing that all of you are making to much fuss over this when there are other things to fix. Look at the forum people! How many treads are on the topic of Sorcerers and They Are to Powerful whining. And I think this happens every time that someone got as kicked in PvP. For all those who think melee should kill a mage well stop gnawing on mags changes and start fighting to get your DEVASTATING CRITICAL BACK. And now I will open another crusade. Every time I see melee vs mage whining I will re post this: Now you got me going  and i know this is not the best topic to post, but you are talking about character changes. - shifter + undead remorts need harm potion please! Without it they are almost useless! (and if you want a weakness they are turned with ease (our HD is only 8 to 12 so level 16 cleric have a fun with them.)) - shifter class need some work on its preepic shapes and epic construct shapes. The last ones requires a lot an they gave nothing back. Like daemon flesh golem with 30/+3. Wow what a DMG reduction, my average dagger kills it and besides only armor merges so useless construct shape (other two are not much better this was the best one:(). And shifter form SHOULD NOT BE DISPELLABE IN ToI. - shadowdancer shadow evade duration if nothing else (it would encourage more pure shadowdancer builds ) - Harper scout and PDK tell me how much of them do you see:( so make PDK and harper scout something every party would like to have when they go on a tough mission. - Druids have anyone noticed that druids have wild shapes? and elemental shapes (useless again!!!) oh and that there are animal companions - TOTALLY USELESS --> this goes also for familiars but wait pixi that is something we could use right so no chance necessary this is for now and you see that sorcerers are not the biggest problem. The problem is that they are privileged in how many attention do they get!!!! my druid characters are quite jealous. There are other things to focus on in RD If you nerf arcane casters too much, you will really missed them on boss runs and quests. I just want to make it better and not to walk in circles of sorc, PM RDD , melee problem. One more thing. A lot of people play arcane caster in PvP. So tell me, why don't you try your genius and build something what would be fun and a challenge to play in PvM or PvP. PS: I hope this post doesn't put me on black list for ass kicking online  but it had to be said. |
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Post by Tyr on Mar 18, 2009 5:06:50 GMT -5
Actually Vilv I think you hit the obvious. As I said begin to change things and the server balance goes with it. PM and RDD combo is only Bard or Sorc, and this is not so major an issue. Since you can only take up to 3 classes in NWN 1 it stands to reason that you must take the bard or sorc, and you sacrafice a lot when doing so.
Experience is the teacher, not nerfing or changing classes. Equipment also makes a large difference. Put enough boss gear on someone and they can take just about whatever they want.
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Post by Imhotep on Mar 18, 2009 8:17:27 GMT -5
A mage is an easy kill... if you use a mage yourself (and you are good at it). You all seem to forget it... a mage is only vulnerable in unrested and caught un aware....in truth though, how many mage PVP players would ever be caught like that if they are worth there weight in Mana ;D My point was: a mage will always be vulnerable vs another mage. |
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Post by Pants on Mar 18, 2009 12:11:36 GMT -5
My thoughts on the PM RDD combo... It does make the WM useless. The core to the wm is the crit and the pm being immune to crit makes them useless my two cents Uhh...what does that have to do with RDD? You're only talking about the Pale Master aspect of the build, and just the addition of RDD hardly makes a Weapon Master useless. I'd be more concerned with a PM/Sorcerer build being overpowered (or a Sorc/anything really). Also realize that taking a lot of PM levels (especially along with bard and RDD) really hurts your offensive side, whereas Weapon Master is pretty much as offensive as you can get. A PM can make a WM about as useless as a WM can make plenty of other builds...you cant expect one build to be able to kill all others all the time (except Sorc apparently). This is a post about BOTH pm and rdd so what i said is valid and and yes there are plenty of builds that can kill a sorc archer, monk, range fighter, smite crit pally (if sorc is not a pm), shifter, another mage, cleric, and theres a few more i cant think of... And what i beleive is the pm + rdd (not just the rdd) makes the weapon master pretty much useless. Last i check with the right combo on a pm + rdd you can get your ac up to like near 100 with gear and bard in the mix. Happy now? And i think weve tried getting back our dev crit... i dont think thatll ever happen (wish it would) |
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Post by Dethklok on Mar 18, 2009 12:24:33 GMT -5
Uhh...what does that have to do with RDD? You're only talking about the Pale Master aspect of the build, and just the addition of RDD hardly makes a Weapon Master useless. I'd be more concerned with a PM/Sorcerer build being overpowered (or a Sorc/anything really). Also realize that taking a lot of PM levels (especially along with bard and RDD) really hurts your offensive side, whereas Weapon Master is pretty much as offensive as you can get. A PM can make a WM about as useless as a WM can make plenty of other builds...you cant expect one build to be able to kill all others all the time (except Sorc apparently). This is a post about BOTH pm and rdd so what i said is valid and and yes there are plenty of builds that can kill a sorc archer, monk, range fighter, smite crit pally (if sorc is not a pm), shifter, another mage, cleric, and theres a few more i cant think of... HAHAHA... Does anyone actually think that you can damage a Sorc/Pm with arrows? And a monk is equally useless. And sure Clerics are great in pvm, but they have no chance against a decent sorcerer or wizard. You guys need to stop listing builds that will "kill a sorcerer every time", because its just ridiculous. |
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Post by Dethklok on Mar 18, 2009 12:31:28 GMT -5
And what i beleive is the pm + rdd (not just the rdd) makes the weapon master pretty much useless. Last i check with the right combo on a pm + rdd you can get your ac up to like near 100 with gear and bard in the mix. Happy now? And i think weve tried getting back our dev crit... i dont think thatll ever happen (wish it would) RDD barely Gives you any more ac, and taking like 6 bard levels wont give you any either (unless you meant taking tumble, which a wpn master will also have anyway). And i think that Devastating Critical is a little too powerful for pvp...fortitude save or die on every critical hit? Thats a little extreme. |
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). Well if you don't like wisdom, you can be dex based and your attack bonus get with a appropriate gear around 50. With a little tweaking of your dmg output (wiki stated divine might and divine favor dmg bonuses penetrate any dmg reduction
but it had to be said. 
