Requested spell changes

[villvk]

LOL
Karma I couldn't agree more with you.
I will sign under your post any time but you know I fear that this post of yours will open old wounds and chaotic babbling will dominate this topic for more days to come (you and your evil missions )

[bhale187]

Of course a skilled builder and PvPer can use a melee build to drop an arcane build, but that's a rarity. Most players don't ahve an elevated level of expertise in building or in PvP combat. The fact that 95%+ of the time that an arcane build will own several melees with little effort denotes that they are generally unbalanced.

One can argue that the arcane build should be able to take out a melee, or several melees, but that is a simple acceptance of the imbalance of the builds.

The general idea is to try to lessen the gap of power between the general classifiactions. Clearly you can never have an entirely balanced system, but anything that will get you closer to an even playing field will be examined by the DM team.

[[Karma]]

Balancing the caster in PvP would either mean lowering it's abilities to dish out and take damage, or strengthen every other build. We know which would be done. Then you will have complaints that the caster can no longer compete on boss runs / quests.

I disagree that I am simply accepting the imbalance. I don't believe there is an imbalance to be accepted. But even if for some, ridiculous reason, I was wrong (there is a first for everything ), I don't believe that it requires an "elevated level" of expertise. It just requires people thinking a little differently about their builds, instead of using the same tried and tired builds over and over. Look at the Pale Dragon, people watched Frosty stomp because it hadn't been used before, suddenly it's a core mainstay for it's tankability. Should a tanking str toon beat a caster? Not a freaking hope in hell, it's not what it is designed for, and it's such a predictable build there are hundreds of ways to annihilate it that people haven't seemed to think about. Vis-a-vis there are plenty of ways to mop up a caster with a single, not necessarily perfectly mathematical build, but one that has the right idea in mind. The melee types are of the benefit they can stand against pretty much anything but a pure caster, soaking and healing until the end of days. Pure caster has to hope they decimate the opponent before they run out of spells, and frankly pray their opponent doesn't have half a brain.

I'll list two things right off the bat I have used to successfully smite casters in PvP:
Traps - Set your own ground for combat. Most pvp casters don't bother with Find Traps, they should. Deadly traps stacked correctly can monster a caster very quickly. Take a quick trip to the crypts, go to town. Even if they do have find traps, they probably won't use it in the first combat, but every combat after that they will be using one necessary spell to make certain death isn't coming.
Scrolls - Fairly obvious one. Anyone can cheese up enough to use scrolls, and they should. Greater Spell Mantle means they have to mord you first, Prot from Spells isn't on the Mords list so it will help you afterwards, Silence is a great spell cast on yourself to send a mage running (into your aforementioned traps).

It's not what the build is, so much as how it is used. Problem is the mainstay style of melee'er is designed as a standard melee, high str, high consistent damager. That's a mob killer, not a pvper. Sorry, but I feel the problem is people aren't being creative enough. I'm quite happy to give a few tips rather than nerf classes because people are lazy.

Re: Brian -edit. My apologies. I see the name...-.
No, they really, really don't. End of story.

[Nather]

May 20, 2009 21:42:53 GMT -5 [Karma] said:

Balancing the caster in PvP would either mean lowering it's abilities to dish out and take damage, or strengthen every other build. We know which would be done. Then you will have complaints that the caster can no longer compete on boss runs / quests.

I disagree that I am simply accepting the imbalance. I don't believe there is an imbalance to be accepted. But even if for some, ridiculous reason, I was wrong (there is a first for everything ), I don't believe that it requires an "elevated level" of expertise. It just requires people thinking a little differently about their builds, instead of using the same tried and tired builds over and over. Look at the Pale Dragon, people watched Frosty stomp because it hadn't been used before, suddenly it's a core mainstay for it's tankability. Should a tanking str toon beat a caster? Not a freaking hope in hell, it's not what it is designed for, and it's such a predictable build there are hundreds of ways to annihilate it that people haven't seemed to think about. Vis-a-vis there are plenty of ways to mop up a caster with a single, not necessarily perfectly mathematical build, but one that has the right idea in mind. The melee types are of the benefit they can stand against pretty much anything but a pure caster, soaking and healing until the end of days. Pure caster has to hope they decimate the opponent before they run out of spells, and frankly pray their opponent doesn't have half a brain.

I'll list two things right off the bat I have used to successfully smite casters in PvP:
Traps - Set your own ground for combat. Most pvp casters don't bother with Find Traps, they should. Deadly traps stacked correctly can monster a caster very quickly. Take a quick trip to the crypts, go to town. Even if they do have find traps, they probably won't use it in the first combat, but every combat after that they will be using one necessary spell to make certain death isn't coming.
Scrolls - Fairly obvious one. Anyone can cheese up enough to use scrolls, and they should. Greater Spell Mantle means they have to mord you first, Prot from Spells isn't on the Mords list so it will help you afterwards, Silence is a great spell cast on yourself to send a mage running (into your aforementioned traps).

It's not what the build is, so much as how it is used. Problem is the mainstay style of melee'er is designed as a standard melee, high str, high consistent damager. That's a mob killer, not a pvper. Sorry, but I feel the problem is people aren't being creative enough. I'm quite happy to give a few tips rather than nerf classes because people are lazy.

Re: Adam.
No, they really, really don't. End of story.

perfect.

this post is the only one that makes valid points in the whole "mages are too strong" debate. now everyone else stop crying.

[bhale187]

The simple fact that a player has to be creative to win with a melee against a caster, but a caster does not have to be creative, well built, or a skilled PvPer, and the fact that a melee beats a caster so very, very rarely should tell you the 2 classes are not on an even playing field.

There are several classes that are in the process of getting boosted, and the vast majority of arcane spells are returning to standard NwN levels (currently most of them are greatly increased beyond their original status). The only things getting nerfed in comparison to the original NwN scripts are the bigby durations, epic warding and the shield's damage. This will require a caster to use a little more creativity than to just raise shields, cast bigby, and start throwing IGMS for a guarenteed win.

[Imhotep]

I can't beleive this thread is still open.

[Tempus]

May 21, 2009 13:52:16 GMT -5 Imhotep said:

I can't beleive this thread is still open.

Why? Its a topic that has facets and none are so smooth as to just be accepted. There are valid points made and determining what's best (or what's needed-if anything) requires discussion.

[Tino the magnificent]

i have to say Karma...."damn"

i have to agree w/ ya mate, i supose i have never looked at it that way...i took it for grantid that GSM and silence thing vs. casters...

a pale drake (that i use on my main) isn't designed to be an uber mage killer but he still does the trick... the only defense a mage has against him is spaming igms and mording his lil ass of hopeing he is faster then me...

again, thank u for articulating that point so well, u rock bro

[Nather]

May 21, 2009 8:14:14 GMT -5 bhale187 said:

the fact that a melee beats a caster so very, very rarely should tell you the 2 classes are not on an even playing field.

when it comes to pvp, its true mages have a slight advantage. when it comes to farming, consistent damage, less need to rest, etc... melees beat mages every time. so really, there is an imbalance. melees are way to uber at everything not pvp. they need to be nerfed.

oh wait....i guess i just let the big secret out. redemption is more than just pvp.

if you want redemption to become a "battle pvp arena" by all means make these changes you talk of. otherwise, LEAVE IT ALONE.

nerfing spells effect more than just pvp. making it "fair" for melees in pvp against mages cripples the only good thing mages can do.


everyone has an opportunity to play a caster, there is nothing unfair about that.

[Tempus]

The real 'secret' in Redemption is that its a high magic server. Many spells have been changed (for quite some time) and gear is prolific.
I think one thing that I tend to focus on in what Ben said is more of a balance.
For instance, the spells that have been changed really only affect 2 classes. There are indeed 5 caster classes. Gear is slanted towards melee but ther are indeed hybrid classes (and weapon types) that have been grossly overlooked. And finally, though RD is weighted towards action/powergamer/PvP, there are a number of folks who do like to role play. Then of course we have to implement and test through real life use. I mean, if 90% of the players fall to a boss, is the boss too strong, or the players too weak? (just an example).

I think more can be done to balance these aspects within RD, not necessarily hack one or nerf another just for the sake of bringing balance to the NWN game.

[Tino the magnificent]

May 22, 2009 6:50:12 GMT -5 Tempus said:

The real 'secret' in Redemption is that its a high magic server. Many spells have been changed (for quite some time) and gear is prolific.
I think one thing that I tend to focus on in what Ben said is more of a balance.
For instance, the spells that have been changed really only affect 2 classes. There are indeed 5 caster classes. Gear is slanted towards melee but ther are indeed hybrid classes (and weapon types) that have been grossly overlooked. And finally, though RD is weighted towards action/powergamer/PvP, there are a number of folks who do like to role play. Then of course we have to implement and test through real life use. I mean, if 90% of the players fall to a boss, is the boss too strong, or the players too weak? (just an example).

I think more can be done to balance these aspects within RD, not necessarily hack one or nerf another just for the sake of bringing balance to the NWN game.

i couldn't agree more...things need to be tested on a larger scale and over a larger time, a boss is not to powerful just cuz it kicked the servers ass once...

the bosses are usualy built to have a weakness and it's up to the party to figure out what it is. some times it takes one character to tank another to cast, some times it takes a combo of several players skills (i.e: pick pocket, mage shield tank, mage spell slngers, melee beaters, bard buffers). bosses were never ment to be easy, just saying.

about the pvp, we all do it from time to time... i know i love damn neer everyone on server even know some times i play the big bad Kindred ....it makes it more fun to "hate" eclipse some times, hehe

i do see how certain things can be loooked at and changed and that's what the DM team is doing (from what i've seeen). It will take time to get things balanced a little bit better but i deff don't think hacking, slashing, and nerfing is gonna do the trick, it will just piss people off even more then now.

on my personal wish list for changes, HiPs: i would like to see it being able to beet TS. not w/ one lvl SD or even 10 lvls hide/ move silent. i'm talking major focus in the art of Shadow Dancing. Perhaps it could be scripted for like 20+ SD and 40+ MS/Hide (i'm not a scripter and have no idea if it can be done).

[Imhotep]

May 21, 2009 22:19:51 GMT -5 Nather said:

everyone has an opportunity to play a caster, there is nothing unfair about that.

WORD.

[littletall]

this post is the only one that makes valid points in the whole "mages are too strong" debate.

ummm, I made valid points in that topic too albeit they were very close to these

and the vast majority of arcane spells are returning to standard NwN levels

this is a high magic world. doing this would make it not be a high magic world. effectively destroying incentive to play here. and with other things being nerfed all the time as it is, RD would be on a good way to driving away 90% of the remaining player base.

[[Karma]]

As an addition to my previous comments, I am not suggesting that things never need tweaking. It is inevitable. However, I strongly feel that when adapting PvP, a generalised nerf of spells is totally the wrong way to go. It's like trying to hit a gnat on a glass table with a mallet. Sort of...

Directly nerf spells and you'll be further diminishing the mage's abilities in other aspects of the game, to which most they are already fairly poor.

For instance. Instead of a flat nerf of Bigby's duration, how about a GetisPC check. On PC's duration is nerfed. Non-pc? Duration remains. The spell still remains useful rather than being discarded totally.

Also, you mention you want casters to think more. Again I say generalised nerfs just change the spell list of casters, and make them lesser. It doesn't make them really think much more.

Let's look at damage shields. A powerhouse of damage upon melee'ers. Now, if we halved all the damage dealt, spellcasters would be dealt a blow in PvP. But they'd still be able to cheese it out with other things you will want to nerf, once again dropping mages in the ladder. What about if we dropped the damage to a third, a quarter, a fifth? At some point the spells would just be ignored in favour of something else, the cycle would start again at a lower level.

So, instead: Keep the damage of the shields. All three together are painful (especially if you can add WW and AoA). So limit shields on a player to one. This forces a player to choose which shield will be most viable in any given situation, and if they really want to choose them all just to have the option, making a huge choice for sorcerers that somewhat makes up for the save boost. Elemental shield is obviously a high option to use continuously, but against an RDD or even someone with a Cyric ring (i think?), it becomes fairly crap. Acid Sheath has some dedicated damage, but again, with resistance feats and item setup, you can overcome this, essentially building a mage pvping melee build.

As for Epic Warding, I fail to see where nerfing this helps at all if you properly solve the damage shield problem. Frankly I find it kind of wimpy to begin with.

[Tempus]

*kick* Dead yet?! No?! Good!

Karma- this is exactly what the goal IS to do- not generally nerf them all, but alter some in some specific way. Problem is, there have been MANY changes to the scripts over the years (some coders are not so clean) and things get 'lost' or imbedded and implemented incorrectly.

Change is coming and on a large scale, spells is but one aspect of some things that being altered and the current team has really gone to great lengths to consider all these posts and opinions on how the world should be changed. Mind you, the change is not in sweeping, world wide alterations but rather thought out, key aspects of game play. Yes- there will undoubtedly be a few renditions of the changes once implemented. WHEN, is the next question.