Requested spell changes

[littletall]

leveling a caster is not easy till you reach lvl9 spells or so. yes you can use AoE then, but before that you need to be careful to keep a safe distance from pretty much anything or else you need a rez after each monster (that is if you play a regular caster not one with high CON etc). of course there are areas for casters only, but in general a fighter can be leveled easier than casters because it can survive attacks better (ac, hp) and damage enemies too. all you need to do to lvl a fighter is get in the area and click an enemy, you could even do it while sleeping, and they dont run out of attacking power (like casters run out of spells and need to rest, which also means walking to the rest area and giving monsters time to respawn). and I didnt say that casters normally use bigby or igms to lvl, but if you go in and blast a bunch of monsters with AoE, some of them are going to get away somehow, or going to make their save sooner or later (even more so while on lower lvls), if not otherwise then by rolling a 20, and then you get an angry mob chasing you. ok maybe not a mob but a few, depends on how many you tried to kill in the first place. and since nobody rests after each used spell, you run out of AoEs rather fast, in which case it is VERY helpful to have bigby etc to take care of the ones that got away.
but, I also didnt say that lvling a caster is hellish, I meant lvling in general, its a remark about any changes not just this particular one.
also, if there are any casters that have used igms exclusively for bosses and pvp, please step forth so we can see ya (because in game igmss are flying all over the place even when there are no boss runs or pvp going on - to my experience at least)

[bhale187]

Sept 23, 2008 20:40:35 GMT -5 littletall said:

leveling a caster is not easy till you reach lvl9 spells or so. yes you can use AoE then, but before that you need to be careful to keep a safe distance from pretty much anything or else you need a rez after each monster (that is if you play a regular caster not one with high CON etc). of course there are areas for casters only, but in general a fighter can be leveled easier than casters because it can survive attacks better (ac, hp) and damage enemies too. all you need to do to lvl a fighter is get in the area and click an enemy, you could even do it while sleeping, and they dont run out of attacking power (like casters run out of spells and need to rest, which also means walking to the rest area and giving monsters time to respawn). and I didnt say that casters normally use bigby or igms to lvl, but if you go in and blast a bunch of monsters with AoE, some of them are going to get away somehow, or going to make their save sooner or later (even more so while on lower lvls), if not otherwise then by rolling a 20, and then you get an angry mob chasing you. ok maybe not a mob but a few, depends on how many you tried to kill in the first place. and since nobody rests after each used spell, you run out of AoEs rather fast, in which case it is VERY helpful to have bigby etc to take care of the ones that got away.
but, I also didnt say that lvling a caster is hellish, I meant lvling in general, its a remark about any changes not just this particular one.
also, if there are any casters that have used igms exclusively for bosses and pvp, please step forth so we can see ya (because in game igmss are flying all over the place even when there are no boss runs or pvp going on - to my experience at least)

In general fighters can be leveled easier? That's just silly.

It takes about 2 hours to get to level 9, and you can reach 20 in a half day. The last levels are what take some time, and that's when casters can get xp exponentially faster that any non caster.

Every grinding area for CR 20+ is close enough to a rest area that a mage can easily kill 2 or 3 enitre areas, rest and return before any of them respawn. There is not any melee build that can come close to doing the same.

I guess we aren't talking about the same leveling techniques when you say some will get away. There's several tricks for casters to fool NwN AI, and lead mobs to certain death by the dozens in an instant. The majority of casters here know exactly what I am talking about.

Again I will assert that none of the suggested changes will have any effect on the amount of time or energy required to level up a caster.

BTW, I've just stepped forward to say I don't use IGMS in grinding. There are so many spells that do thousands of points of damage to groups of mobs in seconds that it's silly to use IGMS as a leveling spell.

[bhale187]

Does the hardcode limit regeneration gained by spells? If not I think the regeneration and monsterous regeneration may need to be rethought. I agree they should be boosted from the original 3 and 6HP, but regeneration spell stacks. So you could cast monsterous regen for 20HP, and then cast several regeneration spells on top of that (they stack) allowing a cleric or druid to have regen into the hundreds per round.

I have not tested this, so I can't say for sure on that, but based on the description, unless there is a cap on regen gained by spells this could make a Cleric/Druid godly.

[Dethklok]

Sept 23, 2008 12:40:23 GMT -5 Dethklok said:

I'd definitely like to see bigby spells altered, as they're way too powerful now. Maybe make it last 1d4 rounds instead of 1 per lvl, because thats just a ridiculous amount of time to be totally helpless for...also you could make it so the higher of a character's strength or dexterity is used for resisting it, as that would make it possible for rogues and dex builds to resist it.

Come on people...its fairly obvious that bigby's spells need to be altered for pvp. I have no idea why it has been left alone for this long, especially since most of the gear melee builds used to rely on is constantly being nerfed, or prohibited due to umd restrictions.

As stated above, 1d4 rounds is more than enough time for a caster to finish off his opponent, buff himself, flee, cast at another assailant, etc. There is no reason for one spell to be able to render someone completely helpless for up to 80 rounds. 80 rounds. One round is about 6 seconds long, meaning you could be knocked down for up to eight minutes. Thats over half an episode of Metalocalypse (with the commercials!).

But wait! You could just build a monk to kill casters...they can resist bigby's, right? Wrong. Monks are unable to get a high enough AB to hit AC oriented casters, and they dont deal enough damage to get through their damage resistance anyway. Also, monks lack the amount of HP required to be able to strike casters without taking massive damage from their shields and dieing. Furthermore, if you did attempt to build a monk that can accomplish these feats (yeah, right), you would be sacrificing those all-too-important Epic Spell Resistance feats, making him vulnerable to bigby spells once again.

Sorcerers and wizards have several other very powerful spells. They are the only classes that can cast Mord's Disjunction and Spell Mantles. Igms is also an awesome spell, which only one class can resist (coincidentally it's the same class that is unable to harm them...go figure). In addition to those, various other spells including (but not limited to) EBT, GTC, Acid Sheath, Elemental Shield, True Sight, Horrid Wilting, Wail, and G-Sanc, make them more than capable in both pvp and pvm.

These adjustments to bibgy spells would only attempt to put sorcerers and wizards on par with other classes, and not cause them to be a weak class. They'd probably even still be the strongest class, just not by as much.

[Dethklok]

The 1d4 round duration was only supposed to apply to Bigby's Forceful Hand. The others could maybe last about 3d4 rounds, as you can still function when you're under their effects, you just cant walk around.

[bhale187]

Epic Warding Nerf Suggestion

Change from
DR 50/+20 and 1rd/level 50dmg per level before collapse
to
25/+20 1rd/level and 20dmg per level before collapse

[Dethklok]

Mar 16, 2009 17:05:50 GMT -5 bhale187 said:

Epic Warding Nerf Suggestion

Change from
DR 50/+20 and 1rd/level 50dmg per level before collapse
to
25/+20 1rd/level and 20dmg per level before collapse

That's just barely better than using the bracers of hell reduction. Definitely wouldn't be worth taking as an epic feat anymore.

[bhale187]

Mar 16, 2009 17:29:33 GMT -5 Dethklok said:

Mar 16, 2009 17:05:50 GMT -5 bhale187 said:

Epic Warding Nerf Suggestion

Change from
DR 50/+20 and 1rd/level 50dmg per level before collapse
to
25/+20 1rd/level and 20dmg per level before collapse

That's just barely better than using the bracers of hell reduction. Definitely wouldn't be worth taking as an epic feat anymore.

Honestly that was kind of the point I was going for. Sorc and Wiz are already too powerful, the epic warding just compounds this problem, especially in PvP combat.

[Tony654]

Mar 16, 2009 17:32:15 GMT -5 bhale187 said:

Mar 16, 2009 17:29:33 GMT -5 Dethklok said:

That's just barely better than using the bracers of hell reduction. Definitely wouldn't be worth taking as an epic feat anymore.

Honestly that was kind of the point I was going for. Sorc and Wiz are already too powerful, the epic warding just compounds this problem, especially in PvP combat.

Amen to that!

[littletall]

its nice to see all of you having more bracers of hell reduction than you obviously know what to do with, but what about those that have none (and, no prospects of getting some)? make em hang out at goblins till 40 and on, due to lack of DR against anything stronger (including PCs)? I say leave EW alone. If sorc is powerful in pvp, its due to a whole lot of other reasons, not because EW lasts too long etc

[Nather]

Mar 16, 2009 23:10:19 GMT -5 littletall said:

its nice to see all of you having more bracers of hell reduction than you obviously know what to do with, but what about those that have none (and, no prospects of getting some)? make em hang out at goblins till 40 and on, due to lack of DR against anything stronger (including PCs)? I say leave EW alone. If sorc is powerful in pvp, its due to a whole lot of other reasons, not because EW lasts too long etc

agreed.

furthermore, if a sorc is already in a position to be defeated in pvp EW is not going to make any difference.

[villvk]

huh I see that his debate escalated a little bit.
I hoped that it would died in to to three posts.
Well I am not experienced in pvp to be honest. I like other ways of play but that does not matter here.
So you are all bothered with Exhaled sorcerer build and RDD-PM charisma based caster.

So again a little calculation.

if I want my caster to be tough with high saves => Exhaled sorcerer -> good but hat did I lose : AB cannot hit a thing , low HP, otherwise good build because I use my charisma on my armor bonus.

if I want someone tough and immune to critical hit => PM RDD combination -> low ab, low spell penetration, medium duration of the spells.

The point is that caster - cleric, druid, wizard and sorcerer
have better power (damage) delivery in shorter time and you can build them especially the sorc to withstand longer melee attacks with buffs (EMW, EMA). That is a problem in PvP. so if you want to go against caster, BUILD YOURSELF A MONK!!! who ever thought that a fighter can kill prebuffed mage, so stop dreaming. Want to have a mage killer have a monk or shifter build an all sorcerers combined would not kill ya.
This is the game and if I decided that I want to play nwn pvp with fighter build well I don't except to kill mage unsurprised.

They have been nerfed enough. Try focusing on classes that were underpowered in low magic world and become useless in high magic as this.

all those bonuses to dmg reduction (shadowdancer, mindfrayer -shifter) cannot stop a thing on RD.

So I my be a little bit confusing in some areas but to put it together:

->Leave casters alone and stop thinking in the ways to kill them with melee build.

-> how you build your character, how powerful he is and how do you play it is player skill and nothing else! So start thinking in that way.

-> and to much talk about casters and to little about other builds. (how many rangers do you see on the server my I ask.)

[villvk]

Now you got me going

and i know this is not the best topic to post, but you are talking about character changes.

-shifter + undead remorts need harm potion please! Without it they are almost useless! (and if you want a weakness they are turned with ease (our HD is only 8 to 12 so level 16 cleric have a fun with them.))
-shifter class need some work on its preepic shapes and epic construct shapes. The last ones requires a lot an they gave nothing back. Like daemon flesh golem with 30/+3. Wow what a DMG reduction, my average dagger kills it and besides only armor merges so useless construct shape (other two are not much better this was the best one:(). And shifter form SHOULD NOT BE DISPELLABE IN ToI.

-shadowdancer shadow evade duration if nothing else (it would encourage more pure shadowdancer builds )

-Harper scout and PDK tell me how much of them do you see:( so make PDK and harper scout something every party would like to have when they go on a tough mission.

-Druids have anyone noticed that druids have wild shapes? and elemental shapes (useless again!!!) oh and that there are animal companions - TOTALLY USELESS
--> this goes also for familiars but wait pixi that is something we could use right so no chance necessary

this is for now
and you see that sorcerers are not the biggest problem. The problem is that they are privileged in how many attention do they get!!!! my druid characters are quite jealous.

[[Karma]]

Sorry, but I have to step back to the caster arguement, just to throw my 2 cents in.

A non-caster build is based around the notion of constant, continuous damage. A caster build is based around maximum damage output in a minimum period of time. Does this unscale PvP somewhat? Of course it does. Does it mean that a str based melee build can't beat a pvp caster? Not at all. The problem is that most of you seem to think swinging some kind of weapon as hard as possible at a damage shielded, DR'd caster should win the day. Since this is what most pvp casters are designed to beat, this seems somewhat stupid to me. Think outside the box. I've made plenty of casters and non-casters on this server in my time, and I have to say the difference most people seem to imagine exists, really just isn't there.

There are plenty of methods a melee'r can use against a caster to gain an edge. Does it require specific builds and gear? Naturally, the melee'er isn't designed, in D&D or Neverwinter, to take on a caster of such levels that we encounter. Pre-epic the melee is stronger over short duration, at the ridiculously godly levels of NWN, of course the caster does, and should, have the advantage. But again, this doesn't mean they win all. Nor does it mean they are overpowered. Every character build imo should be geared towards a specific purpose. In my opinion, non-casters are generally suited towards farming and bosses. Casters just can't compete there. And if you think otherwise, you really need to evaluate how you build toons o.O (unless you are relying on a lucky imploder or some such).

In short. The caster SHOULD have the advantage. But that doesn't mean the non-caster needs sulk that they are useless in PvP. Far from it in fact. With 5 umd you can get your GSM and Silence scrolls. With a bit of speed and tact, GG caster.

[Punisher]

point is, pvp wise, caster beats all, end of story