Spell Changes

[Dethklok]

Feb 5, 2010 19:48:32 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

How I envision mage/cleric battle.

Dispel
Dispel

Bigby - 50/50, 10/90 vs remorted/geared
WoF - 100%

Mage stumbles around blindly for the next 2-5 rounds.
If his bigby worked, he goes over and finishes the cleric.

Otherwise during this time the cleric tears the mage a new one, and re-blinds after 3 rounds to keep the mage stumbling if he's still somehow alive.

This scenario does make some assumptions.
1) The other versions of bigby remain baseline other than the crushing fist.
2) No freedom of action, anti-blind, or anti paralyze items are introduced.
3) Neither player sucks.

Ohh wait all elementals have freedom from paralysis. Any cleric remort elemental ignores Bigby 7th(holds them in place but they can still cast, drink, shoot arrows etc)

So cleric elementals remorts win 90% of the time.
cleric vs mage 50/50, until gear allows for real high AC then teh bigbies never land and the cleric wins 90%.

Alright, this scenario is a bit noobish, in that it would never happen (assuming no. 3 on your list was upheld). First of all, the Mage could easily use a restoration to remove the blindness, changing your 2-5 rounds to about 6 seconds. And clerics being equal to a sorcerer or wizard spellwise is ridiculous. Neither Clerics or Druids get any form of spell mantle, so they're already at a pretty major disadvantage. And why bother using Bigby's Grasping when you could just BFH. That uses a strength check, so your paralysis immunity and/or high AC are irrelevant. Very few (if any) Clerics have enough strength to resist a BFH, and those that do lack the wisdom required for high spell dc's.

Here's a slightly more accurate depiction of your Cleric/Mage fight:

Cleric: Greater Dispel (50% chance to remove spell mantle)
Mage: BFH

Cleric: On the ground for 38 or 76 rounds
Mage: IGMS, Flame Arrow...Ray of Frost...it hardly matters with so much excess time

Cleric: Pwnt

Thats about how it would play out every time, assuming there are two competent players involved. There's no need for the Cleric to be dispelled, as none of his buffs can deflect a BFH aimed at his face.

Now on to Greater Dispel (this part is for you littletall). The check is [1d20 + caster level] VS [11 + caster level of effect being dispelled]. Meaning, two people of equal caster levels would each have a 50% chance to dispel the other. A separate check is made for each protection in effect, so about half of your buffs would be stripped on average. This works both ways. Before, the spell was capped at level 15, so any more than 15 caster levels wouldnt be counted for the attackers roll, while all 38 or whatever caster levels would be added to the defender, giving the spell a 100% fail rate.

This change in no way affects Mords, which by default doesnt have a level cap. Mords also strips your 6 most powerful effects automatically and lowers your SR, which is why its a level 9 spell. Now, a Wizard could just as easily use Greater Dispelling, save the level 9 slot, and get the exact same effect that a Cleric, Bard, Druid, or Sorcerer of the same level gets from it.

[littletall]

umm, yeah I know what the check is like etc, actually I know all of this..... so, umm, what are you trying to say? (I do however think that greater dispelling on lvl6 could provide to be a very good advantage for mages in some cases, also if used with metamagic + the other stuff I mentioned before)

[Tony654]

Feb 6, 2010 1:03:16 GMT -5 Dethklok said:

Feb 5, 2010 19:48:32 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

How I envision mage/cleric battle.

Dispel
Dispel

Bigby - 50/50, 10/90 vs remorted/geared
WoF - 100%

Mage stumbles around blindly for the next 2-5 rounds.
If his bigby worked, he goes over and finishes the cleric.

Otherwise during this time the cleric tears the mage a new one, and re-blinds after 3 rounds to keep the mage stumbling if he's still somehow alive.

This scenario does make some assumptions.
1) The other versions of bigby remain baseline other than the crushing fist.
2) No freedom of action, anti-blind, or anti paralyze items are introduced.
3) Neither player sucks.

Ohh wait all elementals have freedom from paralysis. Any cleric remort elemental ignores Bigby 7th(holds them in place but they can still cast, drink, shoot arrows etc)

So cleric elementals remorts win 90% of the time.
cleric vs mage 50/50, until gear allows for real high AC then teh bigbies never land and the cleric wins 90%.

Alright, this scenario is a bit noobish

Oh no you didn't!

Loki, keep in mind that although Syl is in Eclipse now, he was in Kindred. KINDRED. So we know he is no noob. He's just.....lost right now, trying to find his way back home. We should help him, not dismiss him as some Eclipse noob. He'll find his way home and rejoin the brotherhood of Kindred soon enough. They all do.

[sylvantis]

Most good players should have remorts.
Many remorts get insane strength and size bonuses.
So BFH would not be as effective as in the past(when remorts were rare). So a cleric who would normals have only 14-16 base strength is running around with 20-24(32-36 after buffing and some minor strength gear), so the BFH check becomes 1d20 +14 vs 1d20 +11-13 +4(size). And this assumes a non-strength based cleric.

Also what sorcerer/paladin cares about a clerics high DCs they're all low compared to his saves.

I'll admit the restore is a good shot. But I kept potions out of the scenario since 90% of pvp in redemption seems to be duels. And once we open that door we have to throw in scrolls of spell mantle, mords scrolls, BFH scrolls, etc

Clerics do have a weak mans version of mantle in the form of Spell Resistance. Sure its like a 20-25% resist rate vs an equal level opponent.

[[Karma]]

Feb 6, 2010 11:27:23 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

Clerics do have a weak mans version of mantle in the form of Spell Resistance. Sure its like a 20-25% resist rate vs an equal level opponent.

Keep in mind Illithid is a VERY viable remort for cleric, which provides 65SR, more than enough to deal with all but pure casters with ESP, even then...well, the maths is obvious.

[Dethklok]

Feb 6, 2010 11:27:23 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

Most good players should have remorts.
Many remorts get insane strength and size bonuses.
So BFH would not be as effective as in the past(when remorts were rare). So a cleric who would normals have only 14-16 base strength is running around with 20-24(32-36 after buffing and some minor strength gear), so the BFH check becomes 1d20 +14 vs 1d20 +11-13 +4(size). And this assumes a non-strength based cleric.

While your strength calculations seem a bit high (for non strength-oriented Clerics), that still only gives them slightly over a 50% chance at best (while fully buffed no less). Even if the cleric did have 50 strength and an Ac over 100, Great Thunderclap would still KD him the majority of the time (unless this supercleric also has a very high Reflex save). Great Thunderclap also ignores SR, so not much else a cleric can do vs that one.

Also what sorcerer/paladin cares about a clerics high DCs they're all low compared to his saves.

I'll admit the restore is a good shot. But I kept potions out of the scenario since 90% of pvp in redemption seems to be duels. And once we open that door we have to throw in scrolls of spell mantle, mords scrolls, BFH scrolls, etc

So what you're saying here is a sorc/pally doesnt have to worry about most Cleric spells because their saves are insanely high, and they have Evasion. On top of that, Clerics can only compete when they use scrolls of Mage spells, which currently is impossible since one rogue level wont give you the 28+ UMD required to use them anyway. And thats supposed to be an argument for Clerics being overpowered?

Feb 7, 2010 4:53:01 GMT -5 [Karma] said:

Feb 6, 2010 11:27:23 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

Clerics do have a weak mans version of mantle in the form of Spell Resistance. Sure its like a 20-25% resist rate vs an equal level opponent.

Keep in mind Illithid is a VERY viable remort for cleric, which provides 65SR, more than enough to deal with all but pure casters with ESP, even then...well, the maths is obvious.

The Illithid remort is just as usable for a Wizard, so no real argument there. And if we're going to go Cleric vs Wizard, Illithid style, Wizard still gets the win. Wizard spells like Tentacles, Great Thunderclap, all damage shields, etc all ignore SR, while all i can think of for a Cleric is WoF (which will only Blind another lvl 40). Aside from that, Mord's Disjunction (Mage spell) lowers SR by 10, so the 65 SR becomes 55 for the Cleric, which is totally manageable for any 38 caster with or without ESP.

[sylvantis]

great thunder clap is 1 rd of KD

also 55 SR is totally managable for someone w/o ESP?

38+4+1d20= 43-62 avg 53
of a 60% chance of failure is nothing?

[villvk]

Hej my I donate some euros in this cause:P
First I must congratulate the course you took in this debate:P
Finally we are talking about fights between acrane casters and clerics:P Beautifill. Now I would like to ask you all to take a step foreward and think on Druids (yeah I really must stick them in:P)
and other unused classes on the server:P

There were some talk of helping range weapon users to cast flame weapon or dark fire on their arrows or bolts, but I didnt see this in spell fixes. (if somene would feel better, this will reduce reciprocal shields problem).

The bigget aplause goes to true seeing nerf if it would include something like 10 +1/(2 caster level) on spot and listen (I would include search too but ....)

So why dont we concentrate on other clasess and just say that the person using sorc/pally combo and rdd/pm in PvP in not a good sport and forget about it?

[villvk]

Uh almost forgot
What about shifter?

[Dethklok]

Feb 7, 2010 17:12:03 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

great thunder clap is 1 rd of KD

also 55 SR is totally managable for someone w/o ESP?

38+4+1d20= 43-62 avg 53
of a 60% chance of failure is nothing?

Hmm, well the default script for Great Thunderclap does have a 1 round kd, i was thinking of prewipe (which was more like a turn). Even one round isnt too bad, and its pretty much automatic, ignoring SR and all. And i said that a 50 - 60 percent fail rate is manageable, not exactly nothing. Remember that the cleric and mage will each be getting and equal chance of failure, so i wouldnt consider that a solid argument for either side. What is important though are the amount of viable mage spells that ignore SR against the few divine that do.