Spell Changes

[Jacko]

i wailed and weirded brigands, at WW, kobolds and pirates and nothing happed. and i must correct myself - i didn't lose the invis.

there must be something wrong with spells

[bhale187]

It sounds like the script is not functioning for the wail, save the visual effects. If the spell had worked as scripted and they saved or made SR check it would show in the battle log, as well as taking away your invisibility.

Take a deep breathe, count to three, then exhale. We'll get it fixed, it's probably just a simply mis spelling somewhere in the script.

[littletall]

excuse me but that messy in-quote added reply is very hard to read

I'm not talking about boss gear or crafts, I'm talking about regular gear. sure, lots of weapons have a few points greater AB or enhancement bonus, but less other bonuses, and pretty much everything else is nerfed. or, by what you're implying here, is now not regularly obtained but is boss gear, in which case the overall quality of boss gear is decreased, and also the overall quality of regular gear available to players. for example, before a player could obtain an item with +2 dex and +4 dex, and get +6 or more from boss runs, for an average +3 for regular gear and 6 or more for boss gear. now, players can not obtain +4 dex items, which makes the regular gear average +2, and if +4 dex items can be obtained from boss runs, then the boss gear quality has been decreased to +5 average.
PS: now after the 1st run, I have to doubt this supposed boss gear awesomeness. I havent seen anything awesome there, with the exception of one or two items they were rather average, or worse (acid, cold, fire and sonic resist 5/- but 100% bludgeoning vulnerability?? no thanks!).

I most surely did notice the changes before the wipe. and I was shocked to find that for some reasons we werent keeping them. they were mostly very good changes, needing just a few minor tweaks. instead we went back to original versions which were no good for anyone (except to be used as an excuse for these nerfs??? cause they werent stronger than before the wipe..... those that were stronger in original versions (time stop, igms) were already disabled or nerfed before the wipe).
sure some spells help with leveling when combined with stupid AI in a few certain areas, but I wasnt aware that leveling was supposed to be painfully slow. everybody was happy that they were able to get thru a lvl or two (till xp drops too much anyway) a bit faster than usual and it did no harm to anyone. nerfing all possible spells is not the way to solve this "problem that's not really a problem".

about leveling, its written clearly what I've said (also lol @ the comment that I dont know the proper tactic with weird/wail/sov). the only "thing" could be from the fact that I'm not sure if I understand what changes are made to these 3 spells. it is written as if they will now affect everyone in the area of effect, regardless of other things like the fact that they're in your leveling party. meaning when you cast them, and any player other than you will be caught in the blast, they will also die. this was not the fact before, these spells only affected hostile creatures/players. if this has not been changed and they still only affect hostiles, then nevermind. but from the description it looks like it has been changed to affect friendlies/neutrals/party members too, in which case they're not only useless but counterproductive, and this is what I'm complaining about. if these spells kill party members and neutral bystanders, nobody will level in groups anymore. and since other spells and gear has been nerfed, leveling alone is harder than it used to be, usually forcing you to go to lower lvl areas, meaning you can never reach this 600xp, usually you'll be getting ~200-300 - yes that's right, normal people cant make a lvl3 sorc on the 2nd day after the wipe and survive in werewolf cave like certain people can. so yes those people can level easier now than ever (even get to 40 in a matter of hours!). I know that was probably "testing" but those results are in no way reliable.
also, lol @ you gain free lvls from the newbie castle, oh noes, what a huge drop in the 780k sea, how could one ever replace those points.... besides, you also gained free lvls from the newbie castle prewipe so this is not something new.

greater ruin - 20d20 at lvl40, max dmg 400, average damage 200, + a save for half damage, and this is supposed to be worth the epic spell feat?

wail - no it was not overpowered, just powerful. that was the only area it was useful in. and using it wasnt easy (not to mention boring, and laggy as hell), cause the majority of the creatures in there were immune and could pwn you easily. the rest had decent enough saves and there were not enough of them to justify this ridiculous limit. I'd understand if there'd be 100 creatures which could all potentially die from one spell, but there were like 15. the only area it could be overpowered was in pvp, but only if you were caught off guard which is the case with basically any spell worth using so that's not a big problem either.
and as already noted, it has absolutely no effect since this change.

undeaths eternal foe - it wasnt really a great spell. it was before when the AC stacked, but afterwards it was not great. it's duration was too short and you could get the same benefits from much lower lvl spells, where there werent many other useful spells like there are on lvl9, resulting in undeaths eternal foe being used very rarely. but yes the ac not stacking was enough.

sunbeam - munchkin builds? doesnt the most overpowered munchkin build include 38 levels of sorcerer? its rather hard to make a pure caster with more lvls, and they get no boost over that one with these formulas anyway.
and what has that to do with the fact that the damage to undead/other is out of balance now? it can still scale according to these "supposedly anti-munchkin" formulas AND keep the balance, like 1d8 (no cap) per lvl to undead (max 320) and 1d6 per 5 levels to others (max 48).
also, if we do need a spell that gives an edge to pure casters against others, why not instead change a spell that is otherwise useless?

true seeing - and here I was thinking that the purpose was [insert anything unrelated]........
it should allow seeing thru hide/move silently because those skills can have huge values and nothing else cant be used to see them. and again, people dont have TS on all the time, and those who are that paranoid deserve to be safe from ambush.
this wont help rogues much because nobody really makes pure rogues (and they dont get hips anyway). in pvp, half of the users will be crit immune so they cant be sneaked anyway, and for those that can be sneaked, that first flurry of sneaks is more than enough damage, no need to allow constant sneaking and let them vanish before you can hit back. and on top of that, casting some spells will leave you vulnerable to sneaks too. also, because there is no way too finely balance it so that your ability to see and the hidden enemy's ability to hide are evenly matched, the enemies will fall into one of the two categories: those you can see reliably, and those you cant see. this change wont have any effect on fights against the first group but will make the other very very hard to fight against due to constant hiding.
the only nerf that this spell needs is in regards to its availability. it should not exist or be obtainable in scroll form, or as an item property, castable or not.

greater dispel - yes, so what's the problem? pure casters should have an edge right? and they would still have it with the lvl cap, just not such a big one. the problem with this change however is not who the target of great dispel is, but who the caster is. first of all, as I already mentioned before, clerics with this spell will soon be considered overpowered, and thus changes to other cleric spells will be demanded. second of all, this spell is also available to druids and bards. third of all, its is also available to sorcerers and wizards which will have little incentive to use 3lvls higher mords over this. in best worse case they will use both.

greater magic fang - that's exactly what I'm trying to find out.

[bhale187]

littletall,
After reading your last post it is evident that you and I have a different level of understanding of game dynamics, tactics, and balance. If you are casting AoE spells on your party you are either being lazy or unaware of how to use them well. If you think killing 10 creatures instantly with a single spell is weak you don't understand balance. If you think a cleric should not have a chance against a mage you again do not understand balance. If you think it's harder to level now, you are simply wrong, it's much faster and easier post wipe than it has ever been on RD. If you think a 38 sorcerer build is the most powerful munchkin you are again simply wrong. If you think TS should see through hide/sneak you again don't understand game dynamics and balance.

You are also very misinformed about gear. There are still +4 stat bonus non boss items out there including at least 2 items that give +4 to dex. There is NO boss gear that gives ANY negatives or vulnerabilities.

[Dethklok]

You have to remember that a lot of the higher level areas arent in yet, and so a lot of the higher level gear is missing as well. Since when did we used to get +4 items in goblins or deathbloom? You have to be a bit more patient, April 1st will come eventually . Leveling is certainly the easiest its ever been...my wizard went from 1 to 21 in 3 hours just at ww's.

And there were a few items that gave vulnerabilities from Malforen. The Halloween Mask used to give TS, so the 100% bludgeon vuln wasnt so bad...but now is a little extreme, especially since its boss gear now (and lacks the TS no less).

[Tempus]

Cliff note- the Halloween Mask is not Boss Gear- it was a bonus (due to the number of players and the fact that we were testing) as was everything in that chest.
Boss gear will always be what the Boss drops or has in his/her/its coffers.

Correct- Almost all areas will be in by the April 1st release and some new ones as well. This includes items and item drops.

As to the topic at hand- all spell versions are being reviewed. This includes NWN default, RD original and our own experiences. The DM Team is making adjustments based on a number of factors, some of which Thanos clearly mentions and for the reasons mentioned (PvP, Role Play, Balance in Dominia).
Some changes will work, some changes wont and still others will work but people may not like the changes.
We will address these matters as they arise however, I think it safe to say that not enough play time has passed to judge intelligently any of these changes (with the exception of Wail of the Banshee not even working).

P.S. if a spell says, Affects All in Area- then it does just that. If a spell says, Except those within 2 feet of caster- then it wont affect those, including hostiles.

[bhale187]

Feb 4, 2010 13:05:50 GMT -5 Dethklok said:

And there were a few items that gave vulnerabilities from Malforen. The Halloween Mask used to give TS, so the 100% bludgeon vuln wasnt so bad...but now is a little extreme, especially since its boss gear now (and lacks the TS no less).

Those would have to be freebies that the DM who ran the quest threw in, the standard drops from Malforean, and every other boss for that matter have no negatives.

[littletall]

yes, we definitely have a different understanding of game balance, I for one see it from a players view and know what is used/useful, while on the other hand you seem to want to nerf everything that is useful so it becomes useless.
and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say I cast AoEs on my party, I am asking what would happen if you do. because AoEs cover, well, a larger area (imagine that!) and you can only estimate the radius in which it will take effect. the enemies are constantly moving around and most of the time so is your party. there is very little chance of nobody getting caught in the blast unintentionally.
and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say wail is weak, in fact I said it's powerful. its death magic, and that's exactly what death magic does - you fail the save, you die, end of story. its not like you have unlimited amounts of them, or like you can fit that many creatures in the radius, and it also takes 2 rounds to take effect - no it is not overpowered.
and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say a cleric shouldnt have a chance against a mage. I've said that great dispel is available to all sorts of other classes to and that this change will only make mages more powerful.
as I said, an average player cannot level that easily as you describe. this may change over time when people get the kind of gear this was tested with, but for now I have yet to see this 600xp. especially at lower lvls its impossible. simply increasing the xp limit does not ensure faster leveling, and a bit of testing with epic gear on doesnt provide viable results either.
ok I may be wrong here, I'm not a herd animal and have never made a munchkin build for myself so I'm definitely not an expert on them, however 90% of bitching I hear in regards to munchkin builds is about that one with 38lvls of sorc.
oh I understand what you want the game balance to be like from now on, but you dont (want to) understand that 1.) this wont change much except make some builds overpowered as you'll never be able to see them to hit them back, 2.) every other argument I've made and I dont feel like typing again.

bah, it took me way too long to figure out how to make a thumbnail here that leads to the screenshot, so nevermind. I wasnt picking anything up, and definitely nobody said where they got the items, so its reasonable enough to assume under these circumstances that the gear you receive from a boss run is boss gear. so fine, it is not boss gear, but it does have vulnerability, a huge one.

yes yes, I know not all areas are in yet, I'm not talking about them. the one where +4dex item used to drop, is already in. and another one where a certain +4 item used to drop is also already in (that's 2 off the top of my head, there's probably more). + I've been told that they wont drop anymore cause they're overpowered, which is of greater concern than the fact that they're not dropping at this particular time.

sure, wizards are the easiest to lvl, always have been, try it with a different class (maybe even a build that doesnt start off strong but gains its power in later levels). but its been 1 month and you've gotten yourself nice enough gear to pull it off (probably way nicer than your average player) in the mean time, this would have been impossible on the 2nd day after the wipe.

I understand the part about distance (creatures, even hostiles, within 5 feet are not affected if the description states so), I dont understand if the description states "affect all creatures", does that means EVERY creature in the area or only every HOSTILE creature in the area or maybe all NON-FRIENDLY creatures in the area. simple question, but all I got was evasive answers, so I guess I'll just drop it and go test it in-game, seems far less painful now.

[bhale187]

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say I cast AoEs on my party, I am asking what would happen if you do.

You said "meaning pretty much any casting will result in party member deaths and KFs on yourself, bringing the end to party leveling"

Maybe it's a language barrier, but that sounded to me like you were saying you had to cast the spell into an area that would include your party.

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say wail is weak, in fact I said it's powerful.

you said "wail - no it was not overpowered, just powerful. that was the only area it was useful in. and using it wasnt easy (not to mention boring, and laggy as hell), cause the majority of the creatures in there were immune and could pwn you easily. the rest had decent enough saves and there were not enough of them to justify this ridiculous limit"

Calling it a ridiculous limit and most creatures are immune anyway sounded to me like you were saying it had become a weak spell, maybe another language barrier.

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

and if you'd really read the post you'd know I didnt say a cleric shouldnt have a chance against a mage.

you said "- greater dispelling: is quite overpowered now, equally powerful dispel as mords disjunction. needs a lvl cap, probably around 20-25.

Dropping the limit to 25 means a level 40 cleric has zero percent change of dispelling the buffs of a level 34 arcane caster. And a Level 40 cleric would have only a 50% chance of dispelling the buffs of a level 24 arcane caster. If the cap was set at 20 it would become a 50% chance for Cleric 40 vs mage 19, and zero chance against mage 29. The inability to drop a mage's buffs equals no chance in PvP.

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

as I said, an average player cannot level that easily as you describe.

You are simply ignoring facts, every single kill solo gives double the xp it gave pre wipe, and party xp is larger than pre wipe. Not to mention the fact that everyone leveled up faster post wipe then they had ever leveled up immediately after any previous wipes, and everyone else has said nothing but the same.

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

yes yes, I know not all areas are in yet, I'm not talking about them. the one where +4dex item used to drop, is already in. and another one where a certain +4 item used to drop is also already in (that's 2 off the top of my head, there's probably more). + I've been told that they wont drop anymore cause they're overpowered, which is of greater concern than the fact that they're not dropping at this particular time.

Items have moved, that does not mean they have been removed, if you don't know where to find them ask around and search around. Whoever told you they were removed for being too powerful was mistaken, the items are still available right now, just in different locations from prewipe.

Feb 4, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5 littletall said:

I understand the part about distance (creatures, even hostiles, within 5 feet are not affected if the description states so), I dont understand if the description states "affect all creatures", does that means EVERY creature in the area or only every HOSTILE creature in the area or maybe all NON-FRIENDLY creatures in the area. simple question, but all I got was evasive answers, so I guess I'll just drop it and go test it in-game, seems far less painful now.

This means every creature in the area regardless of hostile or freindly or in your party.

[sylvantis]

One item I did notice missing( and missed) was the belt +4 agility from goblins +4 dex, freedom of action.

Ok onto littletalls rant.

greater ruin. I still agree with as being really really weak. a pure caster does 20d20 with a a save for half, so about 100 dmg, when in PvE at 40 that about 5-25% of a normal trash mobs life. In PvE 100 dmg, is laughable a cure crit potion or two almost covers it! pre wipe it was 450 save for half. So this is a definite nerf. I'd save make it a percentage based spell, with a check for bosses. 1% per level, 1/10th that on bosses. Fair enough I'd say.

Littletall was saying wail was powerful but only in two places period. It didn't deserve a nerf. Fix the level 40 critters with stupid fort saves(like 24 for a level 40 critter? to about 32) 32 its great fort save. Most casters tap out around 40 dc on death magic so 25% of kills isn't to bad. But to be honest, I didn't generally kill more than 10-15 waters in a single cast anyway so this nerf means very little.

Again please address why undeaths was nerfed? 1.69 fixed it.

sunbeam changes. he's right most munchkins still have enough caster levels to fully use the power of this spell. But I rarely complain about a buff so who cares.

True Seeing. I've called for a nerf of this for a long time. Glad it happened, sorry to see it was done in a way that made the spell useless. with all fairness in stealth should only have a 50/50 shot of working on a prepared target of equal level. As it is now it has about a 100% chance vs a fully buffed caster. Maybe a AA who uses zen mastery can spot a good stealth, but thats it.
------My suggestion: make true seeing have a decreasing effect the longer the duration. 1-10 rds +5 spot a level, 11-20, +4, etc.

Greater dispel. yes wizards have stomped all over clerics in the past. But who else has? ohh right clerics are pretty godly otherwise. Not to mention: Clerics can be uber melees and archers, giving them a shelf life way longer than a poor wizard. also not to mention an extra 4 hp/level. soon as clerics are match for wizards in just pure spell slinging, are wizards now going to be a match for clerics in healing, melee, and archery?

That just addressing littletalls concerns.

[bhale187]

Feb 4, 2010 20:55:06 GMT -5 sylvantis said:

One item I did notice missing( and missed) was the belt +4 agility from goblins +4 dex, freedom of action.

[glow=red,2,300]I found that belt in another place, I also found Boots +4 dex and reflex save in a place they were not at before. Alot of drops are no longer everytime, they are staggered.[/glow]

Ok onto littletalls rant.

greater ruin. I still agree with as being really really weak. a pure caster does 20d20 with a a save for half, so about 100 dmg, when in PvE at 40 that about 5-25% of a normal trash mobs life. In PvE 100 dmg, is laughable a cure crit potion or two almost covers it! pre wipe it was 450 save for half. So this is a definite nerf. I'd save make it a percentage based spell, with a check for bosses. 1% per level, 1/10th that on bosses. Fair enough I'd say.
[glow=red,2,300]I had no problem with it prewipe, and did not suggest the change, I was just pointing out what it had become. Personally I liked the 450 save for half, you knew exactly what you were getting each time.[/glow]


Littletall was saying wail was powerful but only in two places period. It didn't deserve a nerf. Fix the level 40 critters with stupid fort saves(like 24 for a level 40 critter? to about 32) 32 its great fort save. Most casters tap out around 40 dc on death magic so 25% of kills isn't to bad. But to be honest, I didn't generally kill more than 10-15 waters in a single cast anyway so this nerf means very little.
[glow=red,2,300]You are correct there were only 2 places it was uber, but those 2 places were good for getting you from level 18-40 in about a quarter of the time it took without using it. IMO, the nerf did little (if anything) to change how it works in most cases. Before you could get around a dozen atans at a time, and about the same of the elementals although you could get alot more elementals or atans at once with some added work. In the end I don't think the nerf really addressed the issue it was aimed at fixing.[/glow]

Again please address why undeaths was nerfed? 1.69 fixed it.
[glow=red,2,300]I can't, perhaps another DM can address that.[/glow]


sunbeam changes. he's right most munchkins still have enough caster levels to fully use the power of this spell. But I rarely complain about a buff so who cares.
[glow=red,2,300]I get what you are saying, I was just pointing out that this and many other spells were changed to help give more damage to those who take more caster levels. This particular one does not give a huge spread, but the changes were aimed at helping those who take more levels in sorc or wiz instead of cross classing.[/glow]

True Seeing. I've called for a nerf of this for a long time. Glad it happened, sorry to see it was done in a way that made the spell useless. with all fairness in stealth should only have a 50/50 shot of working on a prepared target of equal level. As it is now it has about a 100% chance vs a fully buffed caster. Maybe a AA who uses zen mastery can spot a good stealth, but thats it.
------My suggestion: make true seeing have a decreasing effect the longer the duration. 1-10 rds +5 spot a level, 11-20, +4, etc.

Greater dispel. yes wizards have stomped all over clerics in the past. But who else has? ohh right clerics are pretty godly otherwise. Not to mention: Clerics can be uber melees and archers, giving them a shelf life way longer than a poor wizard. also not to mention an extra 4 hp/level. soon as clerics are match for wizards in just pure spell slinging, are wizards now going to be a match for clerics in healing, melee, and archery?
[glow=red,2,300]That's some stretch to say that giving a 50% chance to dispel for equal leveled cleric vs mage will suddenly make the cleric a match for arcane's in spell slinging. Come on, really?[/glow]

That just addressing littletalls concerns.

[sylvantis]

How I envision mage/cleric battle.

Dispel
Dispel

Bigby - 50/50, 10/90 vs remorted/geared
WoF - 100%

Mage stumbles around blindly for the next 2-5 rounds.
If his bigby worked, he goes over and finishes the cleric.

Otherwise during this time the cleric tears the mage a new one, and re-blinds after 3 rounds to keep the mage stumbling if he's still somehow alive.

This scenario does make some assumptions.
1) The other versions of bigby remain baseline other than the crushing fist.
2) No freedom of action, anti-blind, or anti paralyze items are introduced.
3) Neither player sucks.

Ohh wait all elementals have freedom from paralysis. Any cleric remort elemental ignores Bigby 7th(holds them in place but they can still cast, drink, shoot arrows etc)

So cleric elementals remorts win 90% of the time.
cleric vs mage 50/50, until gear allows for real high AC then teh bigbies never land and the cleric wins 90%.

[Tempus]

What level are the casters in your example?

[littletall]

well, I think I've been quite clear, my english isnt that bad (or did anyone else have problems understanding what I'm saying too?).

party lvling - I didnt say you have to cast spells on your party but that it definitely could happen, maybe not all the time (any casting at all) but its definitely hard to aim, especially if everyone is moving around so a lot of times party members will get caught in the blast.

wail - yes the limit is ridiculous, its already been explained why. and yes the spell was powerful, now not so much (for that is the expected result of a nerf as far as I know). and yes most of the creatures in the area that was "problematic" were immune. creatures being immune to any spell doesnt make that spell weak by definition (unless a really large amount of creatures have the immunity), but it does make it ineffective against those creatures.

greater dispelling - yes and? that's still 10 lvls more than what it used to be able to dispel, a nice enough buff. but again you're missing the point: a cleric dispelling a mage's buffs is not what I find problematic. problematic is a cleric dispelling everyone else's buffs, bards and druids dispelling everyone's buffs and mages doubling on their dispelling capability and having it at a lower spell level too.

xp - yea sure. those that lvled fast did so because they devoted a lot of time to it, because they wanted to get to 40 fast (to be ready for boss runs/pvp/remorts/get the reward/personal satisfaction of being first/whatever). higher xp did help but they are mostly experienced and capable players with their mind set on reaching 40, and each new lvl means its easier to get better gear (especially if there's a group involved) which in turn makes it easier to lvl. average players who lvl in average areas dont get that, and for them the xp stays at around 200. of course some builds have it easier than others (and those that lvled fast certainly arent the ones that have it harder).
as for everyone else saying the same - where's this everyone else? I only see 1 other post and even that one is about wizards..... in fact, I'm surprised how few people have expressed their opinions about this (not the xp, about the spell changes).

items - I've asked around, and was told they were removed due to being overpowered. by a pretty reliable source. if that is indeed wrong and they actually still drop, then nvm my complaint about these items.

affect all creatures - well aint that just great. if the kill limit for wail wasnt ridiculous, this certainly is. all of my complaints regarding this still stand.

greater ruin - yes 20d20 at lvl40 is really not enough for an epic spell. 450 was way more appropriate, and consistent.
what is this percentage system based on, 1% of what / level? the target's life? so its 40% of target's life at lvl40, 4% for bosses?

TS - I like the decreasing effect idea (your eyes get sore from the intense staring , but still think it should see thru stealth. dont know how that could possibly be implemented, unless some sort of failure is added to it - it functions as normal for 10 rounds, after that it gets a certain chance of failure, lets say 25% which would mean it would randomly stop working for every 1 in 4 rounds and then come back again (you need to blink and/or rub your eyes . after some more rounds the failure would be 50% and then 75% etc (you need to blink more and more). or maybe a check is made every round to see if the effect "activates", probably as a d20 roll with DC0 for the first 10 rounds, DC5 for the next 10 (this is just an example, could be more since it isnt as "overpowered" with this failure there so the duration of the later stages could be longer), DC10 for the next, etc etc (no idea if it can be done).
also, for the 50/50 chance of stealth working (but also applies to my "failure" suggestion, yet is quite unrelated), there is a problem of the stealth user never knowing if the enemy can see him or not (and we all know hips has some problems, sometimes the creatures will follow you around and attack you even if you're hidden and they cant actually see you, but since you activated hips in the middle of their attack, they wont leave you alone until you reactivate it when they're not attacking you). this is worse than knowing from the start that you cant hide at all because then you can adjust your strategy. so if it is possible to implement such a thing, it would be nice to have some sort of indicator (an icon? a symbol above your head that only you could see?) that would show you if you're being observed or not, because by the time the enemy starts to attack, its too late for the stealth user (or the enemy could just randomly move in that direction, making the stealth user think he's been spotted and try to reactivate, thus forcing him to reveal himself). but I doubt this is possible, so, umm, leave TS as it was (or add a chance of failure to it).

[sylvantis]

I went with with an assumed munkin cleric and mage.
38 cleric /1 monk/ 1 rogue---rogue makes clerics the best lockpickers and HIPS people w/ trickery domain + spot to counter HIPS
38 sorc/1 monk/ 1 pally