Post by littletall on Apr 9, 2011 16:16:00 GMT -5
oh yes, 10 min is nothing compared to the time we all have spent in RD, but that time was spent playing. this is a game that we play to have fun, not to walk around all day long. of course part of playing is walking around too so you can get to the place where the fun part happens, however that is a necessary evil for most. if it could be avoided, we'd all be avoiding it. what could be better than being able to just appear at the place you want to go to (aka port. for free)? sure beats having to walk all the way over there. I think its pretty clear that walking around is not the point of the game, but is a rather dull "chore" you have to do before the fun begins and I dont think anyone could disagree (except maybe for the first few times that you walk that road. but the road in question has been walked upon for a million times already by anyone and everyone). That being the case, the long walk over to nef is price enough for the reward of getting into nef. if the tower is to be placed into nef, then you will have to go there ("pay the price") more times, and I dont think any additional price is needed.
yes, you could kill stuff along the way. however, the 10 min is the travel time if walking invised and ignoring all the mobs. stopping to fight them on the way, however easy to kill they may be (though if a character wants to go to nef just to customize their look, they will want to go there as soon as possible, so maybe the kills wont be so easy), severely increases this time.
I havent counted the number of enemies along the way, so I dont know if this count includes all the mobs in these areas, or just those that are actually along the way. because some brigands are in remote corners of the areas and are basically not worth walking over to. also, the kobolds are all over that one area, while farmer greg is at the beginning. so you have to make a big "circle" around the whole area, then go back to him, and then continue your journey. also keep in mind that loot doesnt just appear in your inventory (another thing: lack of boxes makes it hard for a character to have enough room for 11 crossbows and 24 pelts and other stuff at the same time), you have to wait for the remains bag to appear first and then pick it up (that is if there arent more than 2 enemies togeather that you can kill without moving, and most of these mobs are either alone or in couples). yes it is only a few seconds and a few clicks per enemy, but it adds up. IDing and selling also takes its time. So even if you are able to earn 39k on the way to dwarven village, it would take much longer than 10 min to do so.
Anyway, now the price to get to nef is not only time but also effort. Which is more than enough......
The arguments about easily getting through nef doors are unconvincing at best.
1.) being a barbarian is only an advantage on certain kind of characters. you can not force a level of barbarian on any character because that would prevent you to take another class that would be more useful to that type of build. you cannot reasonably expect that people will give up one of the three classes available to them on all of the chars they want to get into nef, its just not gonna happen, because people tend to (or at least try to) have chars that are useful, that work as a whole, that dont just randomly have melee classes in a caster build or the other way around. especially not barbarian, and here is why:
- d12 hp means nothing with just one level. the character will end up with a grand total of 2-8 hp more, which is a tiny reward comparing to what you gave up by not taking a more suitable class.
- 10% movement increase does not stack with haste and is therefore completely and utterly useless. it might as well not exist.
- +1BAB is not a lot. for a caster build, BAB is not important and again a tiny reward for what you're giving up by not taking a casting-oriented class. for a melee build, there are a lot of other classes that give the same +1BAB along with other more useful benefits, so barbarian is AT MOST just as good as those.
- rage is not a bad ability but it being just 1/day for an average duration of somewhere between 7-10 rounds depending on your build's CON, is still a rather minor benefit.
- +2 fort can be useful, but again not on all builds. it may help you succeed a save now and then, but with the randomness of the rolls and automatic failure on 1, its still not gonna make a whole lot of a difference most of the time.
- access to weapons is nice, but normally you want access to weapons as soon as possible and not wait till lvl40. but, if you're a melee build, you most likely already have these proficiencies, and if you're a caster build, you most likely dont need them. and if you do, other classes offer them too, which may be better suited to your build.
- access to discipline is the only one that's quite useful. but, in order to get it high enough to matter, you need to take the barbarian level as late as possible, which contradicts with the previous point of weapon proficiencies. if you take it early, you'll just be wasting skill points because everyone will still be able to beat your discipline score. and again, if you're a melee build, you most likely already have access to discipline. if you're a caster build, you most likely dont, and while it is helpful, its not necessary. if you still want it, there are other classes that will grant it that may be better suited to your build.
so we have two useless points, three on which the barbarian is at most just as good as another class, and two that are good, but sadly very minor.
dont get me wrong, I do not hate the barbarian class or consider it bad, in fact it can be very strong in proper builds, but those builds usually include a lot of barbarian levels. I have not yet come across a build that would benefit from a single level of barbarian more than from a single level of another class.
2.) persuade. great, so its not completely worthless, just mostly worthless. but first of all, appraise is supposed to be the skill needed to get a better deal at merchants. persuade is supposed to make NPCs reveal additional information or give bonus treasure in conversation. I dont know if this was changed, but even if it was - increasing your selling power means nothing when the merchants payouts are capped at 1500. even if you could have a million points in persuade, you'd still get 1500g for whatever it is you're selling. and yes the vast majority of items you could be selling are already worth more than 1500. those that are worth less, are worth a lot less (like a few gold pieces) and are not even worth selling, that's why you see them lying on the floor or in trash cans where people have dumped them. but persuade is also supposed to lower the price of items you buy from merchants..... except how many people actually buy stuff from merchants? the gear they sell is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered so the items that are actually worth buying from a merchant are pretty rare. it is definitely not worth wasting 30 points on all of your chars just for this purpose. if you must get the discount, then its much more reasonable to dump the points in persuade on your mule/your farming char, and then use that one to buy those few items for your other chars.
3.) intimidate is required for one class yes, but that's just one class. and the amount of intimidate required for that class is nowhere near enough to open this door, or pass any other intimidate check for that matter.
4.) bluff...
So none of these options are viable to get your average char inside. in 99% of the cases this means you will have to bring another char, either a barbarian or a persuader, to open the door, which is what I've said in the first place. sure you can leave him sitting up there, but reset will bring him back to shandy. and I find it very unlikely that you'll be able to customize all your chars at once. sure it may work for your existing chars (if you got a reasonable amount), but for each new char you make you will have to get to nef two more times.
not having time and meaninglessness are connected. if you find the customization meaningless then you will feel that getting it is a waste of time. if you dont find it meaningless then you will take the time and get it. but customization is not the same as unique customization (that would come at a higher price). I for example dont find customization meaningless, I would go to nef and change my appearance if have the chance, and if having to get to nef (twice for each char) is the price, so be it. however if the price is higher I will have to seriously reconsider if its worth it, because I have no problem just being in default looking gear. on the other hand, I do find unique customization pretty meaningless especially with the increased price its likely to have. I know other people may not find it meaningless, and if they want to get it then let them get it without having to jump through too many hoops. if they do get it, I will be glad for them because it means a lot to them, but I still wont be trying to get a unique customization too just because its the "hot new thing" around.
What to do after you get it? Well play as normal. If its not unique you may want to change it again after a while, but in any case, just continue playing as normal and enjoy your new looks, possibly showing off to others if you want to.
I get it, some people will enjoy doing the quest if there is one. but they will enjoy it once or twice, then it just becomes doing the same old thing when they have to do it for 20 more times to get all their chars through..... if there is a new quest to be implemented, I suggest it provides some other reward, because the tower was fine just as it was.
Which was my point - the time/effort needed to get to nef, into nef, and into the tower, are enough of a price.
yes, you could kill stuff along the way. however, the 10 min is the travel time if walking invised and ignoring all the mobs. stopping to fight them on the way, however easy to kill they may be (though if a character wants to go to nef just to customize their look, they will want to go there as soon as possible, so maybe the kills wont be so easy), severely increases this time.
I havent counted the number of enemies along the way, so I dont know if this count includes all the mobs in these areas, or just those that are actually along the way. because some brigands are in remote corners of the areas and are basically not worth walking over to. also, the kobolds are all over that one area, while farmer greg is at the beginning. so you have to make a big "circle" around the whole area, then go back to him, and then continue your journey. also keep in mind that loot doesnt just appear in your inventory (another thing: lack of boxes makes it hard for a character to have enough room for 11 crossbows and 24 pelts and other stuff at the same time), you have to wait for the remains bag to appear first and then pick it up (that is if there arent more than 2 enemies togeather that you can kill without moving, and most of these mobs are either alone or in couples). yes it is only a few seconds and a few clicks per enemy, but it adds up. IDing and selling also takes its time. So even if you are able to earn 39k on the way to dwarven village, it would take much longer than 10 min to do so.
Anyway, now the price to get to nef is not only time but also effort. Which is more than enough......
The arguments about easily getting through nef doors are unconvincing at best.
1.) being a barbarian is only an advantage on certain kind of characters. you can not force a level of barbarian on any character because that would prevent you to take another class that would be more useful to that type of build. you cannot reasonably expect that people will give up one of the three classes available to them on all of the chars they want to get into nef, its just not gonna happen, because people tend to (or at least try to) have chars that are useful, that work as a whole, that dont just randomly have melee classes in a caster build or the other way around. especially not barbarian, and here is why:
- d12 hp means nothing with just one level. the character will end up with a grand total of 2-8 hp more, which is a tiny reward comparing to what you gave up by not taking a more suitable class.
- 10% movement increase does not stack with haste and is therefore completely and utterly useless. it might as well not exist.
- +1BAB is not a lot. for a caster build, BAB is not important and again a tiny reward for what you're giving up by not taking a casting-oriented class. for a melee build, there are a lot of other classes that give the same +1BAB along with other more useful benefits, so barbarian is AT MOST just as good as those.
- rage is not a bad ability but it being just 1/day for an average duration of somewhere between 7-10 rounds depending on your build's CON, is still a rather minor benefit.
- +2 fort can be useful, but again not on all builds. it may help you succeed a save now and then, but with the randomness of the rolls and automatic failure on 1, its still not gonna make a whole lot of a difference most of the time.
- access to weapons is nice, but normally you want access to weapons as soon as possible and not wait till lvl40. but, if you're a melee build, you most likely already have these proficiencies, and if you're a caster build, you most likely dont need them. and if you do, other classes offer them too, which may be better suited to your build.
- access to discipline is the only one that's quite useful. but, in order to get it high enough to matter, you need to take the barbarian level as late as possible, which contradicts with the previous point of weapon proficiencies. if you take it early, you'll just be wasting skill points because everyone will still be able to beat your discipline score. and again, if you're a melee build, you most likely already have access to discipline. if you're a caster build, you most likely dont, and while it is helpful, its not necessary. if you still want it, there are other classes that will grant it that may be better suited to your build.
so we have two useless points, three on which the barbarian is at most just as good as another class, and two that are good, but sadly very minor.
dont get me wrong, I do not hate the barbarian class or consider it bad, in fact it can be very strong in proper builds, but those builds usually include a lot of barbarian levels. I have not yet come across a build that would benefit from a single level of barbarian more than from a single level of another class.
2.) persuade. great, so its not completely worthless, just mostly worthless. but first of all, appraise is supposed to be the skill needed to get a better deal at merchants. persuade is supposed to make NPCs reveal additional information or give bonus treasure in conversation. I dont know if this was changed, but even if it was - increasing your selling power means nothing when the merchants payouts are capped at 1500. even if you could have a million points in persuade, you'd still get 1500g for whatever it is you're selling. and yes the vast majority of items you could be selling are already worth more than 1500. those that are worth less, are worth a lot less (like a few gold pieces) and are not even worth selling, that's why you see them lying on the floor or in trash cans where people have dumped them. but persuade is also supposed to lower the price of items you buy from merchants..... except how many people actually buy stuff from merchants? the gear they sell is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered so the items that are actually worth buying from a merchant are pretty rare. it is definitely not worth wasting 30 points on all of your chars just for this purpose. if you must get the discount, then its much more reasonable to dump the points in persuade on your mule/your farming char, and then use that one to buy those few items for your other chars.
3.) intimidate is required for one class yes, but that's just one class. and the amount of intimidate required for that class is nowhere near enough to open this door, or pass any other intimidate check for that matter.
4.) bluff...
So none of these options are viable to get your average char inside. in 99% of the cases this means you will have to bring another char, either a barbarian or a persuader, to open the door, which is what I've said in the first place. sure you can leave him sitting up there, but reset will bring him back to shandy. and I find it very unlikely that you'll be able to customize all your chars at once. sure it may work for your existing chars (if you got a reasonable amount), but for each new char you make you will have to get to nef two more times.
not having time and meaninglessness are connected. if you find the customization meaningless then you will feel that getting it is a waste of time. if you dont find it meaningless then you will take the time and get it. but customization is not the same as unique customization (that would come at a higher price). I for example dont find customization meaningless, I would go to nef and change my appearance if have the chance, and if having to get to nef (twice for each char) is the price, so be it. however if the price is higher I will have to seriously reconsider if its worth it, because I have no problem just being in default looking gear. on the other hand, I do find unique customization pretty meaningless especially with the increased price its likely to have. I know other people may not find it meaningless, and if they want to get it then let them get it without having to jump through too many hoops. if they do get it, I will be glad for them because it means a lot to them, but I still wont be trying to get a unique customization too just because its the "hot new thing" around.
What to do after you get it? Well play as normal. If its not unique you may want to change it again after a while, but in any case, just continue playing as normal and enjoy your new looks, possibly showing off to others if you want to.
I get it, some people will enjoy doing the quest if there is one. but they will enjoy it once or twice, then it just becomes doing the same old thing when they have to do it for 20 more times to get all their chars through..... if there is a new quest to be implemented, I suggest it provides some other reward, because the tower was fine just as it was.
Which was my point - the time/effort needed to get to nef, into nef, and into the tower, are enough of a price.
my opinion and my view on the state of things from what I see people doing/talking when I'm on. the others are of course free and welcome to post their own opinions, and I would love to see more of them do so. I am glad to see at least 2 other people posted about this, but to be honest this is above average, usually there's nobody else or one more person (eventhough I know from talking with them in-game that quite a few of them feel similar, however I'm usually the only one that ends up posting). So I'm just gonna take this opportunity to encourage anyone that has an opinion about any matter, to let it be heard, eventhough others have already posted a similar opinion.
jk had to toss some thing in here ...