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Post by Tino the magnificent on Nov 13, 2008 12:31:13 GMT -5
Blackguards could definitely use a boost, as they are currently one of the least powerful classes. Rangers' animal companions should be boosted as well. There really isnt much reason to take Ranger at all as of now, since fighter and paladin each give you more bonuses. Your animal companion is supposed to help make up for what you lose by taking ranger, and losing that bonus puts them at a pretty big loss. And since we're already talking about summons...the spell "Elemental Swarm" needs to be boosted somewhat. Currently it summons a total of 4 greater elementals, one at a time when the previous one dies. Each summon, however, is only 21st level and has less than 200hp and a very low ac and ab. They should each be closer to the fire elemental summoned by the Summon Monster VIII spell, which has 650 hp and is 45th level. I agree on the BG and Ranger, but on elemental swarm I think we should go the opposite direction and weaken the others. I think every spell should be returned to NwN standard script with the exception of bigby, time stop, greater sanctuary, and the damage shields. i disagree, the state of RD right now is tough for players.... if we start becoming an Elitist server then we run the risk of becoming a 2 player server like so many others... question: what happens when we players see a new player come on? answer: we bombard that player w/ tons of gear so he can servive 2 seconds on this server already problem: server to hard fix: boost gear back to old school so we can retain new members the summons are good were they are at for most casters....the ones that need boosted further are BG, Ranger, and PM ele swarm and summon IX does seem weak in comparison to summon VIII.......fix it, mabey not but they are considerably weaker........summon VIII works just fine and IX summon takes spell slots that most people use for better spells anyways, so, is not a big problem IMO |
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Post by Dethklok on Nov 13, 2008 14:05:29 GMT -5
I agree on the BG and Ranger, but on elemental swarm I think we should go the opposite direction and weaken the others. I think every spell should be returned to NwN standard script with the exception of bigby, time stop, greater sanctuary, and the damage shields. Nwn was not designed for PvP or large persistent worlds, it was designed for solo or co-op play in the campaign (PvM). Most spells are either too strong or too weak, so they need to be altered. For instance, a lvl 21 elemental with less than 200 hp may be helpful in the campaign, but it is more or less useless on RD. Weapons, armor, and all other equipment has been drastically changed from that of the default gear on the toolset in order to even things out. You cant boost some things without taking into account all other spells, feats, classes and abilities. Some examples: Barbarians' rage should give them bonuses to Ab and Temporary Hp, instead of Strength and constitution, because it wont stack above +12 and is useless with gear. More ab/hp would be granted with greater rage, mighty rage, etc. Summoned creatures should be closer in power to what you are expected to kill...a summon with 180 hp and a 26 ab/ac is totally useless in any area someone above 30th level would be in. The spell Harm should deal closer to 10 damage per caster level, instead of all but 1d4 hp. Then again, the spell Heal would have to take on a similar effect to keep it fair, so given the two choices I'd rather keep them both as they are. Bigbys (especially BFH) were made way too powerful for pvp. See "the old mages are too strong debate" thread. Assassins' Death Attack ability is easily avoided by any player or monster with free action or immunity to paralysis. Substituting the paralyzing effect for maybe a supernatural slow or similar effect (that bypasses freedom) would make it a more useful ability. Blackguards are in dire need of some actual bonuses. IMo Blackguard is the worst prestige class, because you dont get anything a Pally doesnt have, and you need to take cleave and 5 hide to qualify (so you cant begin as BG like you can with pally). By replacing their bulls strength, inflict serious wounds, contagaition, and inflict critical wounds spells with something like divine favor, shadow shield, true sight, and harm, they would be a much more useful class (even without a better summoned fiend). One use of each per day would help to differentiate themselves from paladins, and put them closer to other uber prestige classes like WM, PM, and Rdd. Etc, etc, etc. |
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Post by bhale187 on Nov 13, 2008 14:40:20 GMT -5
so loki and tino, you think spells needed boosted?
Every change to RD spells outside of the ones named has been a boost. Arcane mages did not need a boost, they need a nerf to give melees a chance in PvP.
Sure nwn summons are not going to hold up to RD standards, but they don't need to. Arcane's have it too damned easy when the spells are original nwn scripts, they don't need a boost.
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Post by Dethklok on Nov 13, 2008 15:50:11 GMT -5
None of what i suggested would apply only to mages (anyone can use a summoning spell). The changes for barbarians, blackguards, and assassins would only apply to characters with a lot of levels in one or more of those classes (melee builds).
And yes, some spells, feats, classes, and abilities do need to be boosted (or already have been), while others need to be weakened (or have been weakened already). All of the summon monster spells have been changed, except Elemental Swarm (and maybe the planar bindings?), which leads me to believe that it was simply overlooked during the original spell changing process. Summon Monsters 1-9 are right where they should be, but elemental swarm is not. Also, elemental swarm is a Druid-exclusive spell, so it wouldnt really affect arcane casters at all.
I dont think that the reason mages are overpowered has anything to do with summoning spell anyway.
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Post by Tino the magnificent on Nov 14, 2008 5:14:34 GMT -5
i'm not saying boost the spells, i'm saying the summons for BG, PM, Ranger need looking into...
my main point in the post was that the gear, especialy starter gear, be more acecible....new players come on and if no one is here to throw them gear from lvl 20+ areas "they die, over and over, get frustrated, and leave"....
how are we gonna stay afloat as a server if no newbs stick around long enough to love it like us...
we are loosing oldbies all the time, if not for a break then for good......we need to subsidise our ranks not look for ways of making it harder on players to stick around and have fun
this game is about the fun, not about making it so hard that only the truly dedicated and Elite can play it.....
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Post by zilasmash on Nov 14, 2008 15:34:27 GMT -5
I'm fine with the epic summon mummy. I've not played with the dragon knight, so can't speak for him. But I like my epic mummy. He's good enough to get you a little ways, but he's not overpoweringly bad. Tough, but not unkillable. About right for a feat you can take as soon as you hit epic. Also, I like that my harms can heal him or kill his opponent. Is good times. Overall, the summon monster spells seem to be hit or miss. I'd like to see them amp up in power as the level increases. Does GREAT for the first 5 levels or so. I know that I looked forward to the rebel soldier until I could summon him. I don't think that the advantages of the current summon IX (higher AC and venom being the biggest that I can recall offhand) really balance out against the level of spell being used or the level 8 version. Besides, the extra AC doesn't really matter when you're talking about monsters that swing at 65/60/55 anyway. AC of 25 or AC of 45...still getting smashed in the face. And the elemental does much better with the damage output than the spider does, methinks. So, maybe a repurposing of SM IX? I would suggest either making it a pure basher with a glass jaw or a supremo meat shield. I would personally like to see the create undead and planar ally line of spells be pumped up. Clerics make for good summoners, due to the buffs and whatnot, but these spells are way lacking. I use a level 8 or 9 slot for create greater undead, I expect a whomper, not a whimper. Should have cast the summon monster instead. Or the Storm of XP. I mean Vengance.  A side point. Is there a reason to take the Animal domain? The big advantage is that the summons give the next one up, but that doesn't apply here. I don't know if it could be coded, but I think that a neat solution to that would be either a souped up version of that summon if you have animal, or caps out with a unique monster at Summon Monster IX that would bump up to a virtual Summon X. Again, I don't even know if these are possible. But they seem like cool additions. Thank you, all DM's, for all the hard work you put into this server. There's a reason I keep coming back to it.  |
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Post by sylvantis on Nov 15, 2008 16:30:34 GMT -5
ok about 75% completed with my 2 year late summon project, aftera bit of warhammer burnout i'll see if i can push out that last bit of editing.
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Post by sylvantis on Nov 16, 2008 13:53:01 GMT -5
Ok I looked into animal companions, and its a huge pain. Every single level of animal companion counts as a separate creature. Thus creating new better companions = 320 new creatures. even if someone where willing to make that many creatures, keeping the naiming conventions correct etc adding creature items, I doubt any DM would have the time to check each of them. Instead I'm going to look into modding the spells
Greater magic fang and awaken to have soem scaled effect on levelling.
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Post by sylvantis on Nov 16, 2008 16:56:45 GMT -5
ok messed around with awakening:
It now adds (caster level/4) +2 str/con to the companion
it also changes the companion into 1 of 12 random forms
the forms vary in power but the high level your druid the better chance you have of summoning a more powerful form.'
This is only on my test server, but its a working option if reddemption is interested.
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Post by villvk on Nov 17, 2008 12:26:08 GMT -5
sound very good  but I'm not the judge:D |
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Post by Mephisto on Mar 16, 2011 13:04:12 GMT -5
ok..i know this subject hasnt been brought up for some time. and i know that sense the last wipe and rebuild of redemption the subject has probly been set aside for more ergent matters. how ever i myself felt the last augment to summon had been over powerd not in the summons ability though more of how easy they were to obtain. i think summons from the basic script are way to under powerd.. they make for no real use in pve..or pvp for that matter.. so what could we do to fix this.. well i would suggest that we look at benifits of schools of magic and spell focus in school's of magic.. if a caster takes the feats they should be worth the feats spent. i would suggest more powerful summons to those who spend the feats to attain them so if a caster spent feats into spellfocus conjuration they would obtain a more powerfull summon when they use their summon's.. this could be a gradual increase to the monsters summoned so that when they upgrade their spell focus to greater spell focus the power of the summons is increased. same for the epic spell focus..and saving the most powerful summons for those brave caster who indulge in a specialty school of conjuration.. i think the same thing could be granted for necromancy.. porducinging more powerful undead based off their focus in the arts agin saving the most powerful undead for those who would take up the spcialty school of necromancy. this i feel would make it fairly balanced so that the people who spend the feats get their reward..but wont have as many feats to pump up into their build. i would think that the most powerful summon would be some what pvp worthy as well as pve worthy maybe even boss do able with of course a certain balance to them. and of course epic mummy and dragon could be effected this way as well increaseing there strength with the more foocused caster. i think shadow dancer could be improved i seen a script on another server that allowed for the epic shadow lord feat.. wich summoned a duplicate shadow of the same alignmet of the character who did the summoning basicly summoning an exact duplicate of the shadow dancer if the shadow dancer was the only one of the alignment in the area and mimiced their gear and level.. this would help in balancing out shadow dancer and make higher level shadow dancer a more welcomed idea i think.
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Post by villvk on Mar 16, 2011 14:23:47 GMT -5
Hi I just loged on in person.
So hi to any old persons left around:P
I am exploring around the server and of course the builds as I can:P
They are not really high level.
So this summon thing got my attention:P
First I totaly agree that summons are not usefull in any ofensive deffenisve capability.
And I finding this memphistos idea interesting.
Also I would like ot add that PM summons are not all fixed.
I mean what is the fun of it if you level your pm and suddenly you nice greater summon becomes somethig that you can beat with a toothstick.
But to finish I must say that I am pleasently suprised that you keep Redemption operational.
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Post by Tempus on Mar 17, 2011 6:36:33 GMT -5
I like the idea of boosted summons and indeed, ones you have to pay for. Its one of the reasons the last release (11.0.1a) gave a slight boost the PM summons. Though not completed- the goal is to boost all PM summons from Level 12 on up. The cost for these summons is the fact that you are taking PM levels past the 'munchkin' build level.
Likewise, I see your point with costs associated to other summons and something I will add to my list (which right now has only areas and professions as target improvements to RD).
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