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Post by bhale187 on Jan 13, 2010 10:18:29 GMT -5
Back to harm.
This is the single most powerful spell in NwN, a simple spell will negate this, but at this point such a scroll is only available through another player making it for you, and even then this may not be an option if the prewipe UMD restriction continues. This is the reason for the proposal of adding a save, and the reasoning behind a FORT save is to give a melee a chance against the spell instead of instant death.
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Post by Dethklok on Jan 13, 2010 11:54:11 GMT -5
With a lot of Pvm issues, i think it would be simpler to buff/debuff the actual hordes in question, rather than alter spells. Yes, the AI in nwn is kinda retarded, and they'll beat themselves to death on your shields or run straight through your Blade Barrier or WoF. Boosting elemental and slashing resistance/immunities in certain groups would help this. I noticed this was already done in a few areas and has worked out just fine. As far as Harm, i still like the idea of a save for partial damage or lowering the base damage. Protections cast from a scroll are easily dispelled, leaving you extremely vulnerable. Add any amount of negative energy vulnerability, and you're toast. And i guess all those sweet Cleric pvp builds are a lot like competent non-Kindred players...often talked about, but rarely seen.  |
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Post by Tony654 on Jan 13, 2010 14:07:36 GMT -5
Does drown have a save or spell that protects against it?
I say leave harm alone. Those that cast it can't strip your protection against it, only that sorcerer/wizard spell will do it. And if you're going aganst a cleric and a sorcerer/wizard you're in deep doo-doo anyway.
Clerics need all the help they can get in PvP. You take harm away from a cleric and you really limit his options. Anyone not prepared when fighting a cleric will get all the harm that's coming to them.
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Post by bhale187 on Jan 13, 2010 15:15:48 GMT -5
I keep hearing harm is already too weak because it's so easy to block, if that's that case why would anyone be against changing it?
Harm should, IMO, be divine damage, have a Fort save, and a successful save should cause some damage on par with damage caused by any other 6th or 7th level spell like the nerfed version of IGMS. Harm does more damage than drown, does not have a save like drown, and harm does not damage the caster like drown which is also a 6th level divine spell.
Harm is after all a 6th level spell, not an epic spell. The lack of a save combined with the massive damage it will cause for those who do not have up a negative energy protection spell is simply not on par with any other spell of it's level range. Harm does more damage than drown, does not have a save like drown, and harm does not damage the caster like drown which is also a 6th level divine spell.
Changing damage to divine bypasses the quick and easy immunity that can be found via spell or scroll for those that can use it. Adding a save, and damage upon save puts it back on a level playing field with any other 6th level spell.
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Post by Ael'Thas on Jan 13, 2010 16:21:44 GMT -5
I'd just like to mention here that in my opinion, harm has always been overpowered a bit. All right, before UMD was restricted and scrolls were everywhere (clan stores) you could easily get protection against Harm. But nowadays when the only way to get a scroll is to scribe it yourself (or get Karma to do it  ) and with the limited UMD the only way to get protection against it is either be a caster yourself, or be a rouge. But the Harm spell is really usefull against fighters, weapon masters, dwarven defenders and all other builds that lean towards strength and constitution and highten their AC with shield and armor. It IS a touch attack. It DOESN'T allow a save. It leaves you with 1d4 hp. 1d4!! Rouges can already protect themselves against Harm with crazy dex bonus to AC and with scrolls (if they can get their hands on some). But what is the probability that a fighter will have 5-6 levels of Rouge/Bard/Assasin so he can have enough UMD to use that scroll? AND that he gets the scroll in the first place? Harm is NOT so easily defendable against as most people here believe, walk around the server a bit and you'll see that 90% of tanks are undefended against it. As for people who stated that you can't really attack until the guy has a chance to heal. We all heard about AOEs right? And about stuff that damages you for a few rounds (quite some spells work that way, even low level ones, you have bleeding etc.)? What about a summon or something? Drag someone in an AOE (for instance SOV), summon something to help you, Harm the guy and proceed to attack. The person will go down in 99,9% of the cases when he isn't defended against Harm. If he goes down to 1d4 hp, it's almost impossible that he'll survive the AoE on his head (since tanks don't usually have all that high reflex save AND don't usually have dodge to nullify the damage), the caster, the bleeding/lasting spell effect and the summon. I say nerf it to something like leaving 20% of the enemys hp. That still makes it a strong spell (it can still take over a 1000 off a really strong tank) but it also allows the tank to maybe survive it if it's an extremely powerfull one. Just my 2 cents |
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Post by Tony654 on Jan 13, 2010 17:07:43 GMT -5
Every build has its highs and lows.
I once knew a cleric that I could KD at will, but if I missed he'd harm me. To me this is a push. You nerf harm then I think you have to "adjust" other classes as well. Kinda like opening a can of worms.
Give us the UMD back and now you can be protected. Make your own cleric to scribe the scrolls you need.
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Post by bhale187 on Jan 13, 2010 17:58:17 GMT -5
Every build has its highs and lows. I once knew a cleric that I could KD at will, but if I missed he'd harm me. To me this is a push. [glow=red,2,300]You nerf harm then I think you have to "adjust" other classes as well.[/glow] Kinda like opening a can of worms. Give us the UMD back and now you can be protected. Make your own cleric to scribe the scrolls you need. I don't beleive that to be the case. Giving harm a save, and changing the damage type to one that can not be blocked by another spell, as well as giving the spell some damage in the case it is saved against is not a game breaking change, it is simply putting harm in line with any other 6th level spell. In fact, to me this makes the spell more viable in face of the complaints that it is too easy to block anyway. Couple that with the fact that several other Cleric spells are getting boosted to give them a chance in PvP only furthers the cause of leveling the playing field. |
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Post by bhale187 on Jan 13, 2010 18:11:21 GMT -5
Here are a few things being kicked around as possible spell changes
Flame arrow lvl 3 spell
4d6 dmg per 4 caster levels
change to make 4d6 dmg per 8 caster levels dropping it back to 120 dmg or enpowered to 180 dmg-still double the damage of fireball and lightening at the top end, but slower progression-the original spell was just not taking into account a character being able to make it to level 40, it was meant to top at level 20
Greater Dispeling
is 1d20+ level (15 cap) vs 11+caster level no cap to overcome a spell.
This is the only real dispelling available to clerics, but is useless against a caster of any level. I propose the cap be removed making it a 50/50 chance of working
Divine Favor
currently lasts 1 turn
I propose it be made to last 1 round/level meaning at level 40 it would be 4 turns
another option for DF is
Divine Favor-
*Scale to +1 per 4 caster levels for 1 ~17 (lvl 1= +1, lvl 5= +2, lvl 9= +3, lvl 13= +4, lvl 17= +5)
*Scale to 1 per 5 caster levels for 17 ~39 (lvl 22= +6, lvl 27= +7, lvl 32= +8, lvl 37= +9)
*Max +9
Divine Power- spell 4, cast at lvl 7:
1 extra hit point/level, strength is raised to 18 (none if strength is already 18 or higher) and base attack bonus improves to that of a fighter of the same level.
*Temp hit points 4 per caster level
*Additional strength increase to 25 at caster level 24
Word of Faith- spell 7, cast at lvl 13:
A wave of divine energy blasts all enemy creatures within the area of effect. All enemies within the area are stunned for 1 round/2 levels. Those with 4 hit dice = killed instantly, 5~7 = stunned, confused and blinded, 8~11 = stunned and blinded, 12+ = blinded. Any hostile summoned creatures are returned to their home planes.
*7 HD or less = Instant Death
*8 HD ~ 20 HD = stunned, confused and blinded + 1d4 + level divine damage
*Caster level 21, 21 HD ~ 35 HD = stunned and blinded + 1d6 + level divine damage
*Caster level 36, 36 HD and higher = blinded + 1d8 + level divine damage
*Rounds 1d4 + 1 for stun, blind and confused
Greater Ruin- spell 9, cast at lvl 21 (PM=15), SC 25: done
The caster deals 35d6 positive energy damage to a single target.
DC = 20 + ability mod for ½ .
*Damage 1d20 per ½ caster level
Earthquake- spell 8, cast at lvl 15: done
The caster causes a massive earthquake around himself, causing 1d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6) to all creatures in the area of effect. The caster is not affected by the earthquake.
*Damage 1d6 per caster level (no cap)- max = 240
Bombardment- spell 8, cast at lvl 15: done
Rocks fall from the sky, causing 1d8 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d8) to all enemies in the area.
*Damage 1d6 per caster level (no cap)- max = 240
Crumble- spell 6, cast at lvl 11: done
This spell inflicts 1d6 points of damage per caster level to a selected construct (to a maximum of 15d6). This spell does not affect living creatures.
*Damage 1d6 per caster level (no cap)- max = 240
Blade Thirst- spell 3, cast at lvl 12: done
You grant a slashing weapon a +3 enhancement bonus. If targeted on a creature, the spell will enchant the weapon in the primary hand of the target.
*Levels 1~10 = +3 enhancement
*Levels 11~18 = +5 enhancement
*Levels 19~24 = +6 enhancement
*Levels 25~35 = +8 enhancement
*Levels 36~40 = +9 enhancement
Greater Magic Fang- spell 2, cast at lvl 3 (RG=11): done
This spell strengthens the caster's animal companion, giving it +1 to hit and +1 to damage for every three levels of the caster (maximum of +5). It also grants the creature damage reduction and enhancement bonus equal to the hit/damage bonus given. (lvl 5= +1, lvl 6= +2, lvl 9= +3, lvl 12= +4, lvl 15= +5)
*Level 5 = +2 (DR = +3/3)
*Level 6 = +3 (DR = +4/4)
*Level 9 = +4 (DR = +5/5)
*Level 12/15 = +5 (DR = +6/6)
*Level 16/20 = +6 (DR = +7/7)
*Level 21/25 = +7 (DR = +8/8)
*Level 26/34 = +8 (DR = +9/9)
*Level 35/40 = +8 (DR = +10/10)
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Post by sylvantis on Jan 13, 2010 20:32:34 GMT -5
Here are a few things being kicked around as possible spell changes Flame arrow lvl 3 spell 4d6 dmg per 4 caster levels change to make 4d6 dmg per 8 caster levels dropping it back to 120 dmg or enpowered to 180 dmg-still double the damage of fireball and lightening at the top end, but slower progression-the original spell was just not taking into account a character being able to make it to level 40, it was meant to top at level 20 OK a few things about flame arrow. Evasion kill its completely. Its Dc is real low. Fire is the most available resist in teh game and the one most taken by players. A simple 10/- fire resist currently lowers a maximized level 40 flame arrow from 240 damage to 140. But teh fact is anything a level 40 caster is facing will have enough reflex save without evasion to make the save. Meaning anyone with 10/- fire receives 20 damage in total. And that a level 6 slot used. Under your purposed changes damage would be reduced from 120 max to 70. 10 damage if they make the saving throw. Under the same 10/- scenario. Divine Favor currently lasts 1 turn I propose it be made to last 1 round/level meaning at level 40 it would be 4 turns another option for DF is Divine Favor- *Scale to +1 per 4 caster levels for 1 ~17 (lvl 1= +1, lvl 5= +2, lvl 9= +3, lvl 13= +4, lvl 17= +5) *Scale to 1 per 5 caster levels for 17 ~39 (lvl 22= +6, lvl 27= +7, lvl 32= +8, lvl 37= +9) *Max +9 This isn't a huge issue, I mean those of us who are pros with melee cleric will own a little more but we tend to reach the +20 cap anyhow, its just a +4 damage and duration bonus. But take into account this is also a paladin spell. Paladins already are pretty good. I don't see if being a game breaker but dangerous still. Divine Power- spell 4, cast at lvl 7: 1 extra hit point/level, strength is raised to 18 (none if strength is already 18 or higher) and base attack bonus improves to that of a fighter of the same level. *Temp hit points 4 per caster level *Additional strength increase to 25 at caster level 24 I don't think divine power needed help. But i'm willing to let you guys try this w/o protest. Word of Faith- spell 7, cast at lvl 13: A wave of divine energy blasts all enemy creatures within the area of effect. All enemies within the area are stunned for 1 round/2 levels. Those with 4 hit dice = killed instantly, 5~7 = stunned, confused and blinded, 8~11 = stunned and blinded, 12+ = blinded. Any hostile summoned creatures are returned to their home planes. *7 HD or less = Instant Death *8 HD ~ 20 HD = stunned, confused and blinded + 1d4 + level divine damage *Caster level 21, 21 HD ~ 35 HD = stunned and blinded + 1d6 + level divine damage *Caster level 36, 36 HD and higher = blinded + 1d8 + level divine damage *Rounds 1d4 + 1 for stun, blind and confused Yay a more powerful AoE version of Bigby for clerics. PvP as imagined by me now. Cleric casts new improved greater dispel. Cleric stuns target for 2-5 rds. Cleric takes his weapon/spells whatever(he's pretty good with both), beats you up for 2-3 rds, recasts WoF continues. This spell at the 36+ level is also 95% PvP since higher end creatures tend to be mind immune. I'd say get rid of stun and confused, add slowed and maybe cursed. Greater Ruin- spell 9, cast at lvl 21 (PM=15), SC 25: done The caster deals 35d6 positive energy damage to a single target. DC = 20 + ability mod for ½ . *Damage 1d20 per ½ caster level Kinda worried this sounds like harm(as purposed) but ranged and 1 shot. I think the level of damage sounds fine, but of an epic feat it lacks a certain umpf, maybe add a greater dispel effect tried to it as it tried to overload your magic defenses. Blade Thirst- spell 3, cast at lvl 12: done You grant a slashing weapon a +3 enhancement bonus. If targeted on a creature, the spell will enchant the weapon in the primary hand of the target. *Levels 1~10 = +3 enhancement *Levels 11~18 = +5 enhancement *Levels 19~24 = +6 enhancement *Levels 25~35 = +8 enhancement *Levels 36~40 = +9 enhancement I agree the spell needs help but I think a little more is needed if you since 36+ levels into ranger, you definitely need help anyhow  and a +2 bonus to slashing weapons probably was your dream save. I'd save add vamp regen to it. Still no dream save but heck not to many weapon w/ a nice +9 vampiric. Otherwise Nothing that makes me want to tear my hair out. Just worried about WoF the most. |
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Post by sylvantis on Jan 13, 2010 20:37:43 GMT -5
I did not make this clear enough in my original post, but the changes I listed are not set in stone. Some of them are already scripted, and some are already in effect, but for the most part they are all still up for discussion amoung the players and the DMs (which is the purpose of this entire thread). As the thread originator I hate to correct our lovely dedicated staff, but this thread was created to for the world to see my brilliant ideas, and abase themselves before me and towering my ego. Now please back to business: Am I smartest or the sexiest person here? (Will add poll later *hint* option #3 Both! is the correct answer to the future poll.) |
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Post by littletall on Jan 13, 2010 22:07:59 GMT -5
glad to hear about druids/shifters, they were about as viable as archers and do indeed need some buffing. and to prevent abuse, the 2nd option seems good (or maybe if its possible, make these new improvements not work if the character has monk levels - kinda like monk abilities wont work if they got armor on)
- mestil & elemental - as far as I know, they were nerfed before this wipe. and geez, seems like everytime someone makes a good build, its called abuse..... I had a mage/PM made for the purpose of letting things kill themselves on the shields, however he sucked at everything else, and I mean everything, couldnt hit anything in melee and couldnt break through anyone's SR, he could just stand there hoping that the enemies die before the shields run out since he only had a few of them (and in pvp, that they dont have the brains to heal :S), so he wasnt really fit for prolonged fights/missions. anyway, nobody can have it all, the better you are at one area, the worse you are at others, so I dont see why a build like this would be called abuse. with the nerfs to epic warding and bracers of hell's reduction it's more likely to be called "not worth making anymore".
- blade barrier - its the only spell of this kind a cleric has. its not particularly useful except for atans, right, but why nerf an already underused spell? and nerfing the damage will only make people cast more of them. as for comparing it to wall of fire, yes they are similar except that mages also usually have RDD levels (or elemental shield) and can walk through it without problems while coming too close to blade barrier will usually kill the caster, making wall of fire far more appealing to use.
adding a secondary usage to it doesnt sound bad, although making it a shield will make all clerics abused builds, no doubt about it! (joking of course).
- harm - monsters that dont have the "privilege" of scrolls usually have immunity or SR anyway. and I cant imagine what the situation was like before the UMD restriction, seeing that even now protection was still VERY easily available. as mentioned, anyone can make another char and have it scribe scrolls/craft wands all day long, or have someone else cast it on them, and yes the good builds do have enough umd to be able to use scrolls. I've only tried (and failed) to harm people a few times, all the other times I didnt even try because I examined them and saw that they got protection on. so the only one that would ever be in danger of being harmed are the pure melee builds, which can probably KD you before you can cast it, if not then I guess giving them a bit of an edge wouldnt be a bad idea, because there are still chances that the save wont be made, however mobs arent limited to lvl40 and such, so certain ones will have saves up in the 90s or more which nobody has any chance of overcoming with any spell.
anyway, the single most powerful spell in nwn this is not. as said, a simple and quite widely available spell will completely negate it, and its not the only spell that negates it. these spells are also quite impossible to be dispelled by a cleric. its also not instant death spell, has a super short range (have to get within melee range to cast it and then you can easily be interrupted or KDed), and its hard to land it on some builds, and its useless against a very popular type of mobs. sure it can do more damage than other spells in the same lvl range, but has other drawbacks. yes its still better than other spells in the same lvl range, however that's mostly due to the other spells sucking or being nerfed/disabled. not that lvl of the spell is that important since people lvlup fast enough. its also not only about clerics - if harm is nerfed, what will druids do? and what's this about drown hurting the caster, did I miss a memo or something? :S
as for changing it to divine damage - change is one thing, nerf is another, and nobody has so far stated they're against change, only against the nerf. I personally dont oppose changing it to divine although I dont see why. mobs can just as easily be immune to divine, but the lack of stuff that protect players against divine will only make it stronger, and if this is going to be used as grounds for the nerf, then just leave it as it is.
about not being able to attack before the target can heal - I still stand by it. bleeding is not something that players can inflict on others, AoEs can be avoided, and summons are too weak to be a real threat. and if somehow you do manage to get yourself in a situation where you stand in the middle of AoEs, have bleeding etc on you, and are surrounded by summons that can actually hit you, then as tony said, you're in deep doo-doo anyway.
yes, and it's very disturbing. the suggested changes to divine favor, divine power etc, further enforce this feeling (not that they are bad ideas in their own). harm is a unique spell that is only usable by 2 classes, and one of the very few offensive spells (that dont suck) available to those classes. nerfing it will go a long way towards the extinction of caster clerics, and cleric will become more or less used only for buffing and going melee (like we dont have enough of those already). and the change to greater dispelling would draw clerics too much towards mages. mages have their own (much larger) bag of tricks, let the clerics have their own too.
- as for the rest of the spell changes, they seem good enough, I especially like the suggestion for word of faith - with how strong mobs are, anything that uses HD to determine effects/damage dealt is pretty much useless. word of faith has never caused anything else but blindness to anyone, so any buff is welcome, just dont let it become too strong in pvp. of course other spells whose effect depends on the mobs HD could use buffing too, for example undeath to death, scare, color spray, sleep, power word kill and power word stun, control undead, banishment, circle of death and so on, same goes for other abilities too, like turn undead etc.
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Post by sylvantis on Jan 13, 2010 22:15:14 GMT -5
Just thought of one problem with a change to harm...undead. Specifically undead bosses, and right off the top of my head two undead mini-bosses. If we change the damage type, I'm going to really laugh at Cooky and Capt Stabbins when they go to harm selves back up to full life instead nuke themselves with a divine blast of punishment. I suppose you could throw in a check to see if the caster is undead or not.
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Post by Dethklok on Jan 14, 2010 2:36:13 GMT -5
I think that the idea behind bhale's suggestion on Flame Arrow has more to do with a well known exploit involving spell mantles. Less arrows is a great idea. Possibly adding 1d6 damage per arrow at 16th and 32nd level would bring the damage up a little, but IMO its not really necessary. Other level 3 spells (Fireball, for instance) stop getting better at level 15, which seems to be fine with most people.
Still a fan of adding a fortitude save to Harm for partial damage, and/or lowering the base damage. Instead of draining you to 1d4, lets say it drains you to 20 percent of total hp, or to 10 percent if you're already below 20, and automatic kill if you're already below that (bypassing any death ward). This way, a tank with 1200 hp would have a higher chance of survival than someone with 200.
How about instead of changing Harm's damage type to Divine, we change Negative Energy Protection and Shadow Shield's immunities to 50 percent? These two spells, along with the availability of scrolls, make negative damage from both weapons and spells pretty useless in pvp. Even not considering the affect it has on Harm, they still provide more protection against a single damage type than any other spell. Looking back at recent posts on the subject, it seems like this easily acquired immunity in itself is one of the main problems people have with weakening Harm.
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Post by bhale187 on Jan 14, 2010 7:14:03 GMT -5
Just thought of one problem with a change to harm...undead. Specifically undead bosses, and right off the top of my head two undead mini-bosses. If we change the damage type, I'm going to really laugh at Cooky and Capt Stabbins when they go to harm selves back up to full life instead nuke themselves with a divine blast of punishment. I suppose you could throw in a check to see if the caster is undead or not. Not an issue since I am redoing both the spells and the bosses |
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Post by [Karma] on Jan 15, 2010 2:11:39 GMT -5
I keep hearing harm is already too weak because it's so easy to block, if that's that case why would anyone be against changing it? Noone is saying it is too weak. The problem is in most spells effectiveness in certain arenas. IGMS was a strong pvp spell, but wasn't amazing vs mobs for instance. Harm is much the other way. UMD restrictions don't prevent scroll use but even the cheesiest of toons. Eagle's Splendor pot or cha gear ftw there. Clerics have a tough time dispelling mage armour from a level 5, so it's not like they can stop you cheesing that immunity. Why now also add a fort save to further make it crap? Limit it's use in PvM, stop applying generic changes to things. It's been done alot and failed alot. Harm should, IMO, be divine damage, have a Fort save, and a successful save should cause some damage on par with damage caused by any other 6th or 7th level spell like the nerfed version of IGMS. Harm does more damage than drown, does not have a save like drown, and harm does not damage the caster like drown which is also a 6th level divine spell. So now, to counter the save, we make it divine? Why the need to change damage type to effect a save? Harm shouldn't effect undead, hence the negative energy, it's pure evil, hence the pure energy. I'm not even going to bother comparing to drown, because it's pointless and stupid. The lack of a save combined with the massive damage it will cause for those who do not have up a negative energy protection spell is simply not on par with any other spell of it's level range. In one hit damage sure. It's also a touch attack which renders it vulnerable to conceal. Let's look at the other spells that have this? Wow, short list. And let's look beyond just plain damage at all the other spells of it's level or lower that are JUST as good, nay even overpowered in certain environments. Acid Sheath? IGMS before general nerf? Improved freaking invis? Shall we dole out generic nerfs to everything that might be a little tough in a certain situation? *shrugs* Harm does more damage than drown, does not have a save like drown, and harm does not damage the caster like drown which is also a 6th level divine spell. Not relevant. In the least. Spell lists are different, applications of classes are different. Changing damage to divine bypasses the quick and easy immunity that can be found via spell or scroll for those that can use it. Adding a save, and damage upon save puts it back on a level playing field with any other 6th level spell. Feels like making an unnecessary generic change for a specific reason, and then jamming a quick anti-nerf on top to cover base. As one may have guessed. I really don't like this idea. EDIT - Had to follow on this one. Harm is NOT so easily defendable against as most people here believe, walk around the server a bit and you'll see that 90% of tanks are undefended against it. That sounds so incredibly superior I want to hurl. Even my arrogance couldn't quite clear that. Besides, you're flat out wrong. It takes one level. Read. One. Level. That's all you need to cheese out the UMD req. 99.9% of tanks take 1 level for tumble. Level 5 cleric can scroll. It costs virtually nothing. And...arguement negated. Thankyou. |
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) and with the limited UMD the only way to get protection against it is either be a caster yourself, or be a rouge. 
and a +2 bonus to slashing weapons probably was your dream save. I'd save add vamp regen to it. Still no dream save but heck not to many weapon w/ a nice +9 vampiric.
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