Post Wipe Thoughts and Wants

[bhale187]

Re: True Seeing
This has always been an issue on RD, and probably always will be. Here's why

--Several of the new highest level crafts have HiPS as a bonus feat on the item.

--Rogue has always been a class used to munchkin, and very VERY rarely used as a primary class for anyone, and even less commonly used as a primary class on anyone's primary alt/toon. In fact the only primary alt who was primarily a rogue that comes to mind is helm's kobold.

--You only need one level of rogue and 1 of SD or 1 of those crafts to have an insanely high hide/move silent score if you are willing to save back the skill points


[glow=red,2,300]Re: Spell Changes in general[/glow]

I am in the process of reviewing all the spells scripts, if you have an idea you would like incorporated please send me a PM of your proposal. Your precise proposal will be given a higher level of consideration if you are willing to rewrite the script yourself and send it to me.

Keep in mind the majority of any changes that will be implemented are going to be geared towards weakening the arcane spell caster.

A quick and dirty list of some of the changes that have been mentioned here, and are likely to occur.....

Bigby spells as a whole will be given a massive reduction in duration, 4 rds will be the max

Greater Sanctuary will also get a massive duration reduction.

Time Stop will, of course, be disabled-GS will probably replace it in case someone takes that spell.

ILMS and IGMS will receive a reduction in total missiles and damage per missile. It will also no longer max at level 20, it will max at level 40 to give a bonus to those few arcane casters that don't munchkin build.

All the shields will receive a reduction in damage, and will also cap at 40 instead of 20, again to benefit the non munchkin build.

Harm will include a FORT save.

Epic warding will be reduced to +10/soak 50, duration possibly increased

Hell ball will turn from 10d6 to 10d8 of each type, plus 10d8 cold, and will cause 10d6 negative damage to the caster

Blade Barrier will have a 8d6 cap

Greater Ruin will recieve a boost to 1d20 dmg per 2 caster levels



If you have any other suggestions not listed please PM them to me, and if you are willing/capable of scripting the change let me know that too.

[sylvantis]

OK first draft of some barbarian changes:

//::///////////////////////////////////////////////
//:: Terrifying Rage Script
//:: x2_s2_terrage_a.nss
//:: Copyright (c) 2003 Bioware Corp.
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
/*

Terrifying Rage causes all within the barbarian's
aura to make a will save opposing the intimidate
skill + (1)d10 of the barbarian. Failure leads to
receiving a negative to dodge AC and spell failure
chance.

*/
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
//:: Created By: Georg Zoeller
//:: Created On: 2003-07-10
//:: Modified By: Richard Grace
//:: Modified On: January 11, 2010
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
#include "NW_I0_SPELLS"
#include "x2_i0_spells"

void main()
{
//Declare major variables
object oTarget = GetEnteringObject();
effect eVis = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_IMP_FEAR_S);
effect eDur = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_MIND_AFFECTING_FEAR);
effect eDur2 = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_CESSATE_NEGATIVE);
effect eLink;

object oBarb =GetAreaOfEffectCreator();
int nHD = GetHitDice(GetAreaOfEffectCreator());

int nRoll = d10(1); //sorry but d20() was just too unbalancing for the game, if you are a rules layer, just put the d20 here...
int nDC = nRoll + GetSkillRank(SKILL_INTIMIDATE,oBarb);
int nDuration = d3();
int nPercent = nDC / 2;
int nArmorClass = nDC / 10;
if(GetIsEnemy(oTarget, oBarb))
{
//Fire cast spell at event for the specified target
SignalEvent(oTarget, EventSpellCastAt(oBarb, GetSpellId()));
//Make a saving throw check

if(!MySavingThrow(SAVING_THROW_WILL, oTarget, nDC, SAVING_THROW_WILL))
{

effect eSF = EffectSpellFailure(nPercent);
effect eAC = EffectACDecrease(nArmorClass, AC_DODGE_BONUS);
eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eSF, eDur);
eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eLink, eAC);
eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eLink, eDur2);
eLink = ExtraordinaryEffect(eLink);
FloatingTextStrRefOnCreature(83583,oTarget);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eLink, oTarget, RoundsToSeconds(nDuration));
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eVis, oTarget);
}
// else immune
}

}












//::///////////////////////////////////////////////
//:: Mighty Rage
//:: X2_S2_MghtyRage
//:: Copyright (c) 2001 Bioware Corp.
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
/*
Might Rage gives the barbarian 1 extra attack
per 10 levels of barbarian, at teh cost of 1
AC per 2 levels and 1 reflex save per 4 levels
*/
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
//:: Created By: Andrew Nobbs
//:: Created On: May 16, 2003
//:: Modified By: Richard Grace
//:: Modified On: January 11, 2010
//:://////////////////////////////////////////////
#include "x2_i0_spells"
void main()
{
if(!GetHasFeatEffect(FEAT_BARBARIAN_RAGE))
{
//Declare major variables
int nLevel = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_BARBARIAN);
PlayVoiceChat(VOICE_CHAT_BATTLECRY1);
//Determine the duration by getting the con modifier after being modified
int nCon = 3 + GetAbilityModifier(ABILITY_CONSTITUTION) + 8;
//Deteremine the Bonus attacks per round and AC and Reflex save decrease
int nExtraAttacks = nLevel / 10;
int nSave = nLevel / 4;
int nArmorClass = nLevel / 2;

effect eAttackMod = EffectModifyAttacks(nExtraAttacks);
effect eAC = EffectACDecrease(nArmorClass, AC_DODGE_BONUS);
effect eSave = EffectSavingThrowDecrease(SAVING_THROW_REFLEX, nSave);
effect eDur = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_CESSATE_POSITIVE);

effect eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eAttackMod, eAC);
eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eLink, eSave);
eLink = EffectLinkEffects(eLink, eDur);
SignalEvent(OBJECT_SELF, EventSpellCastAt(OBJECT_SELF, GetSpellId(), FALSE));
//Make effect extraordinary
eLink = ExtraordinaryEffect(eLink);
effect eVis = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_IMP_IMPROVE_ABILITY_SCORE); //Change to the Rage VFX

if (nCon > 0)
{
//Apply the VFX impact and effects
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eLink, OBJECT_SELF, RoundsToSeconds(nCon));
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eVis, OBJECT_SELF) ;
// 2003-07-08, Georg: Rage Epic Feat Handling
CheckAndApplyEpicRageFeats(nCon);
}
}
}

[[Karma]]

Figure I'll respond here to instant rage. The script that handles rage uses line 307 of spells.2da to fire. Altering casting time from 500 to 0 will give the effect you are after.

[Tempus]

Excellent stuff there Sly. Just some information here so we are all on the same page:

1- the DM Team needs consider and evaluate all submissions for balance, playability and effect. I do not want to give you the impression that things are automatically implemented if you build/script it

2- there were changes made (pre-wipe) to all 4 versions of rage

What you've suggested and provided show incredible initiative and insight. I appreciate it. Keep it coming so we have different vantages when considering changes.

[sylvantis]

I know just because its scripted, doesn't mean its added. But its also easier to sell something if you have it on hand ready to go

[littletall]

been busy with RL the last few days, so here's my opinion about these ideas:

- class innate abilities should be instant
- epic summons do need some buffing
- deathless mastery - that's a really big drawback. too big
- deathless master touch - sounds good
- undead graft - sounds good
- pm summons - need some buffing (as most others)
- havent had much experience with barbarians but the suggestions look good, maybe too good

- time stop - was and should be disabled
- heal - the point of my previous post was that this is a "chicken or the egg" situation, dunno which one was first but unless all the mobs on the server are significantly nerfed too, heal shouldnt be either. besides, its supposed to be a high magic world.... as for potions, the recent increase in price will make it hard to chug one every 3 seconds for any decent amount of time, and if someone is willing to farm as much as to be able to do it, then that's their choice
- true seeing - as long as its unscribeable its fine as it is. not sure if anyone really walks around with it on ALL THE TIME, but if they do, they deserve to be unambushable. if anything, make it easily dispellable, if that's possible
- greater sanctuary - was limited to 6 or 9 seconds and so it should be
- bigbies - they do need a nerf. probably a time limit
- mestils & elemental - I wasnt aware that their purpose is you dying before the thing that is hitting you. their damage was already reduced and that's enough of a nerf

- sov - people would still cast a lot of them very close to eachother so it wouldnt help much with lag but would make it a pain to cast it where you want it. in the end it would be worse than before.
- all of those that should have the lvl cap removed - yes direct damage spells are kinda weak and could use some buffing, but if they are changed like this, its only a matter of time before they are declared overpowered.....
- creeping doom - again wont help with the lag much but otherwise its a good enough idea
- inferno - sounds good. similar thing could be applied to combust too
- healing sting - sounds good
- meteor swarm - sounds good

- spells part III - most of these sound good, but:
- flame weapon, darkfire, greater magic weapon - would be nice if they'd work on ranged ammo since till now ranged builds just werent viable, however with this people will surely call it overpowered too :/
- keen edge - a very good idea. or at least add a similar spell that would work for other types of melee weapons
- dirge - probably one or the other. preferably the other
- magic vestment - I believe it was changed to +1 per 5 lvls, up to +7, which seems good enough
- barkskin and shield of faith are normally at +1 per 6 lvls, so maybe the increase should be like with magic vestment

Harm will include a FORT save.

the most ridiculously bad idea ever. wasnt the point to nerf arcane casters? wasnt the point to balance spells for pvp? since when is harm useful in pvp? everybody has protection, via own spells, or more often, via scrolls and wands and sometimes items. there is also enough time before you can attack again for the target to heal all/most of the damage (if you just happen to catch them without protection). as for pve, most monsters have immunity too, and those that dont can usually be killed otherwise. DO NOT nerf harm because it will become the most useless spell around, since the monster's huge lvl advantage will make it impossible to harm anything that's not too weak to waste spells on anyway.

Epic warding will be reduced to +10/soak 50, duration possibly increased

a close second. the only things that wont be able to cut through it are those that arent a threat anyway.

Blade Barrier will have a 8d6 cap

oh yeah another spell that is rightfully feared for its unlimited power in pvp in the hands of those nasty arcane casters. not.

Hell ball will turn from 10d6 to 10d8 of each type, plus 10d8 cold, and will cause 10d6 negative damage to the caster

is that just 10d6 negative to the caster or in addition to all other effects? in the first case it will be more worth it, but in the second case - no thanks I dont feel suicidal today

[sylvantis]

Found a decent script that gives druids and shifters some love, allowing all items properties to merge.

Seems like a good thing and its works on my test module.

Only issue that i have w/ it is that monk druid or shifter monks will be able to obtain ungodly ac.

Only two real work-a-rounds I can see, one easy, one which i'm not sure my limited scripting skills could do cleanly.

1. Just ban monks from being multiclassed w/ druid.
2. Built into the script a check for the monk class, if detected, give a negative ac bonus equal to the monks wisdom bonus.

W/ either of these changes I think shifter and druids will be quite viable.

Dragon form may be overpowered still, but the script, from what i read allows you to disable item stacking from working w/ certain shapes.


Tempus, if this was not the kind of upgrade you were looking for earlier I'm willing to create something from scratch. But it wouldn't be fancy like this. I'd prob just repaint all shift-able shapes into ones found on Redemption then, re-balance their stats to reflect the high magic level of the server.

Either option or none, but I'd like to know so i can get to work (or not)

[sylvantis]

Good feedback littletall. If I may address some of your points?

"mestils & elemental - I wasnt aware that their purpose is you dying before the thing that is hitting you. their damage was already reduced and that's enough of a nerf"

As of the time of suggestions, these spells were unnerfed full damage. Even with the maximum penalty of 40% vulnerability these spells would be doing at least 120 damage a hit, while at the same time mage is unloading waves of spell damage (most likely IGMS). Sure this change means your going to go down faster, but its still likely anyone trying to going have to back off and chug a healing potion before they can manage to kill you. I mostly saw this as a method to prevent the abuse of the tank mage/pm in PvP/PvE. During which even with shield as half strength most tanks would die before killing a caster as their melee damage was just too low to beat a mage's high hitpoints and damage reduction.

I agree the nerf to harm to much. If we must add this save, I suggest the target still take half damage(maybe just 10/hp level dmg) on a successful save, and remove some of the harm immunities out there. I believe the same should go for heal on undead if its felt harm is PvE issue.

Blade barrier nerf, why? Other than Atan's(which believe me 8d6 cast a dozen time will still be enough to tear them up) the spell has almost no use. everything else has decent enough save mixed with DR and occasionally evasion, that makes the spell a joke. If anything I would recommend raising the DC on it or making it a have soem useful secondary effect in epic game play. (Maybe a slow or string bleed effect that's a fort save?)

[Dethklok]

When i read the change to Harm i just assumed that the fortitude save was for half or limited damage, not to negate the spell entirely. This doesnt sound like a bad idea to me. Another option would be to deal a percentage of current hp, maybe 50 or 75 percent instead of adding the fort save.

Also am not a fan of Blade Barrier being weakened. Not really an overpowered spell to begin with, especially in pvp. I like what you were saying syl, about a second function to the spell...i remember in Icewind Dale or something you could cast it on yourself and create a damage shield like Acid Sheath, but with slashing damage. This might be good to implement here as a secondary useage for the spell. Would be more useful in pvp, and last i checked, clerics were't exactly uber pvp builds, like a sorc or wizard.

[[Karma]]

Clerics are uber pvp builds. They just require more skill, but can pwn mages and melee alike.

[bhale187]

It's not all about PvP boys, PvM is a factor in spell changes as well,

Harm is not going to do 'nothing' when the victim saves, it will be a greatly reduced damage, but not nullified. Many players will have the availability of scrolls to protect them, however there are a great deal of monsters that do not have such a priviledge.

Blade Barrier is and always has been easily abused in pvm, just as wall of flame, sov, etc. AoE Spells that stack are too damn easy to waste hoards of creature whose Artificial Intelligence is not functional enough to tell them to move or to not run into the wall of deeath.

[sylvantis]

I just don't see the purpose, of nerfing spells with extremely limited use, into a spot where they have practically no use what-so-ever.

Karma, yes Clerics own, you could remove all their spells, except divine power, divine power, and battletide and they would still be great. But that for mostly advanced users/meta-gamers and doesn't cover about 70% of the server population.

Right now, all see in the server is what seems to be a disturbing trend to turn casters into weird warriors, who never throw a fireball or curse from the gods at any foe, but are being told their only choices are to go buff up and melee.

[Rulin Pendragon]

I will still work my wiz to the max, however I would like to discuss the pros and cons of the Hellball spell. Would like to see it beefed up a little more if possible. Basic game script calls for 10 points of all damage types, sonic, acid, etc.... I tried a version where I beefed it up to 25, and it had a more dramatic effect to say the least. Any chance we could up it here to maybe 15 or 20 points damage per type, or maybe pick one in particular of damage type and really give it a boost?? Just a thought people..........

[Rulin Pendragon]

Hmm, maybe I should have "scrolled up" prior to posting my last, but maybe we can consider my other input as well, and yes I can and will rewrite the script if need be..... Thanks again...

[bhale187]

I did not make this clear enough in my original post, but the changes I listed are not set in stone. Some of them are already scripted, and some are already in effect, but for the most part they are all still up for discussion amoung the players and the DMs (which is the purpose of this entire thread).